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Thread: Was there ever any proof regarding .38 Colt Long vs. .45 acp?

  1. #21
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    A guess a person could always run 38 Colt and blackpowder 45 Colt spec rounds through a gel test. The issue with "proof" of a round's effectiveness during a war is that all evidence is anecdotal.

    My Dad (and millions of Soldiers/Marines) left the Army with a wildly inaccurate view of the .45 ACP. A good hit anywhere in the body would knock the enemy down, etc. I am sure he also "knew" the M1 carbine was a pop gun and only a lucky shot with one would drop the enemy. That was the anecdotal evidence the military presented. He also left with a very high regard for the Garand, but that is based on fact. The M1 is the greatest battle implement ever fielded.

    Andy

  2. #22
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    I always suspected Brownings' 200 gr bullet was a better idea than the Army 230 gr. 200 grs is plenty of weight and gives an extra 100 fps.

    That 30 gr of weight per bullet savings would have been great for guys carrying an M1 Thompson and 6 mags, too. (Or whatever the standard load-out was)

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
    I'd suspect an opioid-based substance. Maybe khat-like? I've also read where they tied off extremities so unless it was a CoM hit they could continue on.

    Not to derail the thread, but the Philippine Insurrection (a real insurrection BTW) was brutal. I have a couple books about it. It wasn't just Moros either. The U.S. Army developed it's first COIN strategies during that conflict. The things they did would be verboten nowadays to the point of a stint in Leavenworth. There was a water torture where a funnel was used to forcefully "overindulge" the one being questioned, among other sordid things like revenge attacks against "civilians" (I use that term loosely in a guerrilla war) if Americans had been killed. In fact, reports made their way back stateside and a Congressional investigation was launched. The Congress critters were appalled by what they heard.

    To be fair, the Philippine Insurrection is widely considered America's most successful COIN operation. Brutal but it worked. Go figure.
    Id like to see the source where you read that and who wrote it because Im positive its complete bull$hit. Opioids would make a terrible combat drug since half your attacking force would probably end up asleep before the engagement even begins, look at the modern fentanyl zombies and see how eager they are for a fight. You'd want stimulants for combat, not the opposite effect opiates give. Secondly there are no known medicinal plants that would have even remotely those effecst that grow in the Phillipines. Maybe bitter melon being so nasty it would make you want to stab someone?

    People need to take these historical accounts with a huge grain of salt, I mean think about it, go try preemptively tourniqueting your extremities before doing any exercise much less close in melee combat.

    I tend to agree with 1168's assessment, people suck at shooting, people have always sucked at shooting historically except for the hardcore small percent that train for martial excellence. The rest will blame their gear, enemies taking drugs or whatever their excuse is for sucking, thats something historical and modern man have in common.

    Also to note,soft pure lead bullets were far more devastating from a terminal effects standpoint than much of the modern jacketed stuff so muzzle energy doesnt tell the whole story. Id rather get shot with an M1 garand with M2 ball than .75 cal smoothbore musket shooting a minieball and guess which one has more muzzle energy.
    Last edited by vicious_cb; 08-31-23 at 01:11.
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  4. #24
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    I agree. Opiates, in the pre-synthetic era particularly, are terrible drugs for fighters. In addition to making them prefer to stay home rather than fight (the reason the Japanese and British wanted their enemies to be hooked on them), they also make you die more easily. They cause vasodilation due to the histamine effect, and inhibit compensatory mechanisms. In other words, they cause one to bleed out faster, and reduce the natural ability to handle bleeding.

    Imagine fighting people that are both sedated and physiologically fragile.

    I’ve had physical altercations with opioid junkies in my civilian career, and it amounted to being careful not to hurt them.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicious_cb View Post
    Id like to see the source where you read that and who wrote it because Im positive its complete bull$hit. Opioids would make a terrible combat drug since half your attacking force would probably end up asleep before the engagement even begins, look at the modern fentanyl zombies and see how eager they are for a fight. You'd want stimulants for combat, not the opposite effect opiates give. Secondly there are no known medicinal plants that would have even remotely those effecst that grow in the Phillipines. Maybe bitter melon being so nasty it would make you want to stab someone?
    .
    "I'd SUSPECT an opioid-based substance." Note that key word there. Betel nut maybe? I dunno. Seems it wasn't just Moros who were rumored to have taken substances or fought like fanatics (there were several rebel groups we fought over quite a few years).
    11C2P '83-'87
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
    "I'd SUSPECT an opioid-based substance." Note that key word there. Betel nut maybe? I dunno. Seems it wasn't just Moros who were rumored to have taken substances or fought like fanatics (there were several rebel groups we fought over quite a few years).
    Ah gotcha, was curious if it was some first hand account or some historian speculating on this. Seems like the only drug they were on was fanatical Mohammedanism, these types of people of were getting run through with swords since the crusades and still closing in to get a final blow in. I mean you're half right, these people were high on the opiate of the masses .
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicious_cb View Post
    Ah gotcha, was curious if it was some first hand account or some historian speculating on this. Seems like the only drug they were on was fanatical Mohammedanism, these types of people of were getting run through with swords since the crusades and still closing in to get a final blow in. I mean you're half right, these people were high on the opiate of the masses .
    Funny you mention that as I read where they hyped themselves into a frenzy before battle.....akin to someone slapping themselves in the face before a heavy set of squats or bench press! Arenaline be a powerful thang!

    I recommend folks interested in obscure conflicts look at the Philippine Insurrection. It was fought against several groups over a 14-year period. The U.S. military lost ~ 4,200 KIA, so the dead and time involved closely matches Afghanistan. The "Banana Wars" in Haiti and Nicaragua are also interesting.
    11C2P '83-'87
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3 View Post
    I was wondering that, too. Performance-enhancing drugs in 1902-1914?

    There were pain killers, opiates. But that's gonna kill your religious fervor and homicidal rage that you need to kill the enemy.
    They didn't buy drugs, they made them. Betel nut chewing have been a staple in Asia for ages, along with opium, and others. I'd bet that betel nut was the most common drug in use by the Moros: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betel_nut_chewing
    “Detached Reflection Cannot Be Demanded in the Presence of an Uplifted Knife” ~ Brown v. United States (1921)

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by anachronism View Post
    They didn't buy drugs, they made them. Betel nut chewing have been a staple in Asia for ages, along with opium, and others. I'd bet that betel nut was the most common drug in use by the Moros: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betel_nut_chewing
    Considering you could buy this stuff at your local Chinese herbal medicine store Im not convinced this would be the culprit. You would probably get more effects from chewing dip and chugging a Wild Tiger or Ripped Fuel.

    I wonder if those Iraqi insurgents were complaining of Americans not going down because of all those energy drinks they were chugging during the GWOT era, btw a lot of those drinks went out of business because it was revealed they were incredibly unhealthy and or like Ripped Fuel started causing arrhythmias.

    Combat stims have been around for ages, I never heard of GIs complaining about SS troops using Pervitin or the Japanese getting drunk on saki before a banzai charge.
    Last edited by vicious_cb; 09-03-23 at 00:39.
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  10. #30
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    I was listening to a C&Arsenal video this morning, and Othias mentioned that the Colt 1896 was said to fall out of time quickly, causing accuracy problems. It does appear rather dainty, especially with the metallurgy of the time.

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