Carbine Buffers in high end AR's

[Dutch110]

Several posters in this thread are using partial A5 setups, either BCM or OEM. I've always used the standard VLTOR setup with the VLTOR spring.

Why aren't you using the standard A5 spring? What is the advantage of using a spring other than the spring that comes with the A5 system?

All of my rifles have stock VLTOR parts and they all function reliably.

I am curious about all of this spring changing and what you're gaining, or hoping to gain.

I don't think it is any different than tuning the spring and buffer weight in a standard carbine set up to work with how the rifle is gassed. I have A5 set ups in 4 of my rifles. All are FCD tubes and a Sprinco green. The difference is the weights. The two 5.56 guns have A5H2 weights, which work really well for how those guns are gassed. The other two are 7.62 x 39 rifles that have A5H4 buffers that also work really well. Just as an example. All guns run with cans. But with that set up run fine with our without, which is a requirement for me personally.

[BufordTJustice]

Several posters in this thread are using partial A5 setups, either BCM or OEM. I've always used the standard VLTOR setup with the VLTOR spring.

Why aren't you using the standard A5 spring? What is the advantage of using a spring other than the spring that comes with the A5 system?

All of my rifles have stock VLTOR parts and they all function reliably.

I am curious about all of this spring changing and what you're gaining, or hoping to gain.

The early Vltor copper washed springs were on the short side of the rifle spring spec. All the ones I have are the same length; which is about 1-1.25 coils shorter than a Colt or BCM rifle spring. A few coils shorter than Sprinco Green.

I only had it occur a few times, but this has occasionally resulted in failure to return to battery on a dirty gun, when using T-2/T-1/T-0 buffer weights.

I personally use springs for one of two reasons.

1) I want to minimize gun movement and run a lighter buffer while not forgoing ability to function when dirty.

2) I want to increase bolt lock time/delay bolt unlock time in a suppressed gun. Bringing obvious benefits of reduced gas to face, reduced fouling, longevity of lube, reduced toxic exposure, etc.

The Tubbs AR10 spring has an in-battery force that is roughly equivalent to, or slightly higher than, a Sprinco Red Spring (in a carbine RE). However, it's got a fully out of battery spring pressure that is equal or slightly weaker than a Sprinco Blue. Might be closer to the Hot White.

Which means that, for a suppressed shorty running an LMT EBCG, a significant increase in in-battery spring pressure presents a clearly observable decrease in both gas ejected from the ejection port, and a complete elimination of GTF from the charging handle. Even the lower receiver, Mag well, and trigger group stay cleaner (and wetter) for far longer.

Couple that benefit with an out-of-battery spring pressure that is well into the 'normal' range and that permits reliable lock back in all conditions, and the juice becomes worth the squeeze.

In seriousness, if you're in the DFW area, maybe we can sync up and you can run some rounds through it. The differences *really* become apparent while shooting indoors.

Caveat: the Tubbs runs poorly in my KAC and the Geissele runs poorly in my SBR. For the average bro, they are 100% better off just running an A5H2 and a Sprinco Green.


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[Defaultmp3]

The Tubbs AR10 spring has an in-battery force that is roughly equivalent to, or slightly higher than, a Sprinco Red Spring (in a carbine RE). However, it's got a fully out of battery spring pressure that is equal or slightly weaker than a Sprinco Blue. Might be closer to the Hot White.

FWIW, info from ARFCOM indicates that Tubbs measured some of his springs and Sprinco springs and came up with:

• Tubb Flatwire - 10.5 lb closed, 16.3 lb open
• Tubb .308 Flatwire - 13 lb closed, 16.7 lb open
• Sprinco White - 8.3 lb closed, 16.3 lb open
• Sprinco Red - 10.5 lb closed, 18.4 lb open
• Sprinco Orange - 13.9 lb closed, 24.8 lb open

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fMVZbrnvu8

[BufordTJustice]

FWIW, info from ARFCOM indicates that Tubbs measured some of his springs and Sprinco springs and came up with:

• Tubb Flatwire - 10.5 lb closed, 16.3 lb open
• Tubb .308 Flatwire - 13 lb closed, 16.7 lb open
• Sprinco White - 8.3 lb closed, 16.3 lb open
• Sprinco Red - 10.5 lb closed, 18.4 lb open
• Sprinco Orange - 13.9 lb closed, 24.8 lb open

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fMVZbrnvu8

In a carbine receiver extension.

But even those prove my point. The Tubbs AR10 has 25% more in-battery spring pressure than a Sprinco Red and 10% less out-of-battery pressure.

The also supports my assessment of OOB pressure being between a White, Hot White, and a Blue.


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[HKGuns]

The early Vltor copper washed springs were on the short side of the rifle spring spec. All the ones I have are the same length; which is about 1-1.25 coils shorter than a Colt or BCM rifle spring. A few coils shorter than Sprinco Green.

I only had it occur a few times, but this has occasionally resulted in failure to return to battery on a dirty gun, when using T-2/T-1/T-0 buffer weights.

I personally use springs for one of two reasons.

1) I want to minimize gun movement and run a lighter buffer while not forgoing ability to function when dirty.

2) I want to increase bolt lock time/delay bolt unlock time in a suppressed gun. Bringing obvious benefits of reduced gas to face, reduced fouling, longevity of lube, reduced toxic exposure, etc.

The Tubbs AR10 spring has an in-battery force that is roughly equivalent to, or slightly higher than, a Sprinco Red Spring (in a carbine RE). However, it's got a fully out of battery spring pressure that is equal or slightly weaker than a Sprinco Blue. Might be closer to the Hot White.

Which means that, for a suppressed shorty running an LMT EBCG, a significant increase in in-battery spring pressure presents a clearly observable decrease in both gas ejected from the ejection port, and a complete elimination of GTF from the charging handle. Even the lower receiver, Mag well, and trigger group stay cleaner (and wetter) for far longer.

Couple that benefit with an out-of-battery spring pressure that is well into the 'normal' range and that permits reliable lock back in all conditions, and the juice becomes worth the squeeze.

In seriousness, if you're in the DFW area, maybe we can sync up and you can run some rounds through it. The differences *really* become apparent while shooting indoors.

Caveat: the Tubbs runs poorly in my KAC and the Geissele runs poorly in my SBR. For the average bro, they are 100% better off just running an A5H2 and a Sprinco Green.


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Thanks for taking the time to write that detailed response, I get it now.

Unfortunately I'm nowhere near DFW or I'd absolutely take you up on that offer.

I have a springco red and green in stock but I've resisted the temptation to just put one in to replace the stock A5 spring. Which would you use? Green or Red to replace the A5 spring?

Maybe I'll give one or both of them some range time side by side to determine the difference.

[BufordTJustice]

Thanks for taking the time to write that detailed response, I get it now.

Unfortunately I'm nowhere near DFW or I'd absolutely take you up on that offer.

I have a springco red and green in stock but I've resisted the temptation to just put one in to replace the stock A5 spring. Which would you use? Green or Red to replace the A5 spring?

Maybe I'll give one or both of them some range time side by side to determine the difference.

Green by a lot, though Alan at Sprinco has confirmed they both fit and work.

SOLGW ships a green spring in every complete gun and lower they make (and A5H2 buffer). That is basically the best standard setup that I know of; largest breadth of function and also runs really well. The only carbine based setup that I've felt could challenge it for feel is the Geissele Super 42 carbine setup...but only in some guns.

Sprinco Green + A5H2 is a well proven, and good, 'recipe' at this point.

Have also had good luck with Colt (from Specialized Armament) and BCM 17-4 rifle springs. They tuck in between the Sprinco Green and the std Vltor springs in terms of strength.


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[Disciple]

Just to throw another into the mix the JP Tuned & Polished rifle spring is noticeably smoother than a Colt spring just cycling by hand.

[HKGuns]

Green by a lot, though Alan at Sprinco has confirmed they both fit and work.

SOLGW ships a green spring in every complete gun and lower they make (and A5H2 buffer). That is basically the best standard setup that I know of; largest breadth of function and also runs really well. The only carbine based setup that I've felt could challenge it for feel is the Geissele Super 42 carbine setup...but only in some guns.

Sprinco Green + A5H2 is a well proven, and good, 'recipe' at this point.

Have also had good luck with Colt (from Specialized Armament) and BCM 17-4 rifle springs. They tuck in between the Sprinco Green and the std Vltor springs in terms of strength.


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Thanks, I've resisted fixing what isn't broken for a long time.

I just swapped an A5 spring for a SC green in one of my 18" rifles that is sporting the standard A2 VLTOR buffer.

I won't shoot it any time soon, as I'm heading to my hunting property for Deer season and won't be back "home" for a month or so......

[BufordTJustice]

Thanks, I've resisted fixing what isn't broken for a long time.

I just swapped an A5 spring for a SC green in one of my 18" rifles that is sporting the standard A2 VLTOR buffer.

I won't shoot it any time soon, as I'm heading to my hunting property for Deer season and won't be back "home" for a month or so......

I'm actually interested what you think of that combo.

I think that the A5 system is unique in that it has *so much* additional margin for function, that it affords us the opportunity to tune and play around with stuff like this and still achieve 100% reliability. We may be throwing away some margin for function on one end of the envelope or the other.... but it's *EXCESS* margin.


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[titsonritz]

Sprinco Green + A5H2 is a well proven, and good, 'recipe' at this point.

^^^This is what I have in the majority of my guns and has been my standard go to since IG (may he Rest In Peace) turned me onto it years ago. It has been a proven runner in my 12.5C, 14.5C, 14.5M, 16C, 16M, 18R & 20R guns, I see no reason to change.

As to the OP, I’ve always thought carbine buffers belong on the bottom of the ocean, if your shit won’t run with an H buffer something is ****ed up.