Adding a trustee to a trust and filing a form 4

[Nocaster]

If a buyer were to purchase a silencer from another private party, and the silencer was on a trust, can the seller add the buyer to their trust as a co-trustee while the form 4 is pending?

The idea is that the buyer as co-trustee can then take the can and shoot it, take it home, etc, because as co-trustee he is entitled to have possession of the can owned by the trust.

Obviously there's some trust involved between the buyer and seller that everyone will go through with the transaction, but are there any legal problems? None that I can see, but I need a devil's advocate.



Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Bret]

I seriously doubt that there's a law against the specific scenario that you've outlined. That said, I personally wouldn't do such a thing. I hate to use this term, but it certainly violates the spirit of the law. Of course, the spirit of the law is taking away your rights, but you get the idea. You'd be providing the documentation, and they might just decide that it's a conspiracy of some sort.

[SteveL]

I've heard of people doing similar things before. Here's an interesting scenario. It involves a silencer that was purchased on a Single Shot Trust from Silencer Shop. The important thing to know about this trust is that it can only be used to purchase one item. So one silencer is on the trust, and no other items can ever be added to it. Suppose you have one of these and want to sell it to me. Add me to the trust. I pay you for the silencer. You then give me the silencer, Form 4, and trust. Later I amend the trust and remove you. I'm sure this wouldn't sit well with the ATF, but since trusts can be amended to add and remove people, what's to stop you from doing it?

[georgeib]

I've heard of people doing similar things before. Here's an interesting scenario. It involves a silencer that was purchased on a Single Shot Trust from Silencer Shop. The important thing to know about this trust is that it can only be used to purchase one item. So one silencer is on the trust, and no other items can ever be added to it. Suppose you have one of these and want to sell it to me. Add me to the trust. I pay you for the silencer. You then give me the silencer, Form 4, and trust. Later I amend the trust and remove you. I'm sure this wouldn't sit well with the ATF, but since trusts can be amended to add and remove people, what's to stop you from doing it?

Ahem...cough...cough...genius...cough...cough.

[SteveL]

Ahem...cough...cough...genius...cough...cough.

I agree. When I was working behind a gun counter, a customer explained this process to a coworker and claimed he had done it several times. It was a real lightbulb moment.

[hi-wayman]

I'm not sure about the "Single Shot Trust" mentioned, but my trust has 3 "classes" of people. A "Grantor" who created the trust, doubt that can be changed. A "Beneficiary". And then you have the "Trustees", which I think we're referring too and can usually be added/deleted.

3 points:

1. There is the aforementioned "Intent". Do you really want to tempt the legal system?

2. Be aware that changing trusts may require different legal processes some/all of it may not be legally possible. Depending.

3. I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV. If you are seeking legal advice, consult a lawyer with experience in that aspect of the law.

I know, I dislike this approach as well, but it's the world we live in. The consequences for ignoring "the rules" is non-trivial.

[Nocaster]

Appreciate everyone weighing in

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Stickman]

My understanding is that you can. You can add and remove to your hearts content, and that is why the ATF cracked down on trusts and now wants prints of everyone.

Take this with a grain of salt as I have never been able to verify it 100%, but it appears to be how it is written.

[lonestardiver]

For new NFA item additions to a trust, they want the prints of all responsible persons (trustee).

[ndmiller]

Sounds like a lot of work to avoid just going shooting together whenever you want to use the suppressor. Stick is right, but intent would be the name of the game when it comes to law enforcement. If you're doing it to avoid the spirit of the law, skip the $200 and/or trying to get around it it could be troublesome. On the other hand trust paperwork isn't publicly filed , so only buyer/seller would know. If something happened though the explanation better be good.

For example when I visited my Father in MS, I would submit the NFA travel form for my SBR's and add him to my trust for the duration of the trip just in case something happened to me. I checked with my Trust lawyer and he gave me multiple copies of the add and remove paperwork. Added him on Friday and then removed him on Sunday for each trip, keeping all the copies signed by both me and him. Probably overkill, but sort of what I signed up for when acquiring SBR's and Supressors.

I setup Trust for the family and kids to enjoy the toys with and without me, although there really hasn't been any interest at this point. Will probably dispose of the items before I go as the hassle for them if they continue to lack interest would be a real PIA.