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Thread: KAC ideas

  1. #21
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    I do like their Sandcutter carrier. Not that I think it’s superior per se. It just looks really cool. Midway gets them from time to time at normal MSRP, $225 I think? I was able to grab one a few months ago. I put a Colt bolt in it, but haven’t used it yet. On GB you’re looking at $1k for one.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    Ya know, HK and Knights both have that kind of following. I've met some guys who really did think "one day" the government was gonna bring them in on the hunt to smoke Bin Laden because certain agencies had heard about their prowess at the range. If we are going to do this, we need to bring in Frank Hamer.
    So I should 1.) Preface this by saying that I am very much into the modern minute man theory of being a good prepared citizen and being an asset to my family and neighborhood in a time of need and I don't shame anyone else for doing this if that is their intention. 2.) keeping back on topic, I know Knights makes a really good product, I've shot a few and was very impressed, but I think that all communities have a percentage of people who want to "buy in" for lack of a better term, and seek out brands that for better or worse grab the attention of people to seemingly make a statement about where they stand in said communities. Knights (HK and a few others) seem to have that reputation, and it unfortunately drags Knights reputation down to have those certain people be idiots with their products.
    Dr. Carter G. Woodson, “History shows that it does not matter who is in power or what revolutionary forces take over the government, those who have not learned to do for themselves and have to depend solely on others never obtain any more rights or privileges in the end than they had in the beginning.”

  3. #23
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    I guess I don't understand how gun production lines work.

    It almost seems like there is only a certain time of the year when they actually produce rifles. It seems they pump them into the supply chain and when they're gone, they're gone.

    KAC isn't the only company with supply issues. Colt, HK and others seem to go in similar cycles. I can understand HK, because of the importing they continue to do. However, for US companies, not having adequate supply is a money losing proposition. Unless part of their strategy is to keep the supply low to artificially inflate prices.

    As far as KAC not having a parts distribution channel, that is a non starter for me, especially given the proprietery nature of some of their parts. HK took similar criticism, but now there are parts distirbution channels for most everything, although not inexpensive.

    That $4,100 KAC, I predict, will sit there at that price and is another example, beyond everyone's favorite, of non participation except for gouging.

    That is a $3,200 rifle at best. EVERY SINGLE POST he has since joining in 2020 is FS.

    Is there anyone in the industry on here who can explain firearms production?
    Last edited by HKGuns; 11-29-23 at 09:07.

  4. #24
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    Getting spares for a KAC is extremely difficult.

    However replacement parts direct seems less of an issue.

    I needed a gas tube. I was able to document it with a picture, it was clearly worn out. They got me a gas tube.

    I’d think if your rifle or upper broke and you sent it to them they’d fix it. Maybe not for free, but I doubt they’d say they had no parts for sale and to F off.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKGuns View Post
    I guess I don't understand how gun production lines work.

    It almost seems like there is only a certain time of the year when they actually produce rifles. It seems they pump them into the supply chain and when they're gone, they're gone.

    KAC isn't the only company with supply issues. Colt, HK and others seem to go in similar cycles. I can understand HK, because of the importing they continue to do. However, for US companies, not having adequate supply is a money losing proposition. Unless part of their strategy is to keep the supply low to artificially inflate prices.
    That's precisely how it happens, because gun companies are dealing with distributors. When you have a few distributors you leave them to deal with the actual market and all the fluctuations and then you as the manufacture have it easy as building as much product as needed and that way you already know what your profits will be and where you can invest your capital, this then ensures that your manufacturing floor is always busy and you will utilize only so many parts keeping your inventory costs low. Doing these production runs does indeed then keep some demand in the market, and that can cause higher prices, but this is more often the distributor who profits from said fluctuations. Where these firearm companies really make their money is through the contract sales which skip the distributor, but it's a double edged sword as they need it to be in the market to build said reputation before they typically make those contracts.
    Dr. Carter G. Woodson, “History shows that it does not matter who is in power or what revolutionary forces take over the government, those who have not learned to do for themselves and have to depend solely on others never obtain any more rights or privileges in the end than they had in the beginning.”

  6. #26
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    For me, at least as a consumer---what I see is the market dynamic/vibe coming from them of "if you don't want to buy it, someone else will". Right now, they are not wrong--but that scenario very rarely lasts forever in consumer goods outside of extreme Halo brands like Ferrari, Bugatti, Rolex, etc. KAC and HK are both Halo brands in the firearms community commanding higher prices for, in most cases, are measurably better products. The problem is, that measurably better is subjective to many. Some of the people I shoot with, wouldn't know which rifle I brought to the range without looking at the lower receiver roll stamp. They just don't care and probably never will. They still have AR platform rifles and train with them, but the care level for the brand is a functional zero. (OR they're Colt Fudds and in that case it's just Colt or die) I don't know what percentage of the firearms community falls into "don't care/don't care enough to spend the difference" category but I would guess a very large percentage. (I turned an AR15A4 into an SPR and shaved down the FSP partly to make a fudd-buddy howl like a monkey at the zoo over desecrating a pony rifle this year)

    It's not like when you buy a Ferrari and there isn't much else on the road that even resembles the car. Brands that create a product that stands out are typically what command and continue to command premiums. Over time, if a product is visually and for the most part--functionally--indistinguishable that brand image/desire for purchase will slide and the laws of economics kick in. I'm going to pick on Pella windows, they make a great product and for a long time--they probably did make the best product. Then the industry caught up and they are stuck with a few features that set them apart--but no longer hold a commanding lead in fenestration technologically. There are too many other very close options for less money. Flippers don't want to pay premiums for things that have close analogs for less money. This drives down margin and you have to belt tighten/reimage/adjust. I think Pella is still doing exactly that. I don't know where KAC is on this scale but eventually they are going to have to make some changes and adapt to market. HK may be the exception because the country of Germany will just keep injecting them with cash regardless of market forces (or at least, historically that seems to be the case). I don't think KAC will have that kind of luxury, barring GWOT 2.0 kicking off with a few hundred thousand boots on the ground. Countries typically aren't seeking the best of the best for line infantry units either--they need good enough and cheap. Those aren't boxes you are usually checking when talking to KAC or HK. G36 was very obvious exercise in cost cutting vs previous rifles and ultimately did not widely succeed.

    Another argument could be made that their intention is to primarily and solely serve the Special Operations Community. Also understandable, but those communities have bean counters that more and more are focused on squeezing coal into diamonds with their butt cheeks. When you have the size of SOF that the US presently has--someone with the money buttons is looking for cost savings. You only need a couple of Biden/Obama administrations to castrate your sacred cows into oblivion. At that point, you have to keep the doors open--the tooling needs to be on to make money. If the US hits a significant recession or downturn (arguably we are there now), it won't take long before the struggle is real for a lot of companies. Those $75 firing pins will drop to market value unless you keep the Halo on and have your market built/maintained and I don't see any effort on their part to build/retain that edge in the civilian shooting community. They absolutely could do it but they are already behind the curve. This is where companies like Sig are doing well and largely due to marketing/understanding of consumer dynamics/still riding a brand wave/innovating/partnering/driving engagement.

    The secondary reality here is within the SOF communities--you are looking for that percent of a percent edge that keeps you alive at the end of the day. The argument previously would have been something along the line of we need the best possible solutions for our door kickers going into the breach. More and more, the first ordnance through the breach is going to be a robot or a drone to save the manpower. The bad asses will be outside on overwatch and the P90 action bolted to a hover drone will be going in the mud house. At that point, those percentages change and so does the money flow.

    Maybe time will prove me wrong, but the Internet has a long memory and these words might ring glaringly true in a couple of years. I really do want to see the superior product win. KAC is Rearden Metal in a lot of ways--but Hank left for Galt's Gulch at the end... They need Dagny Taggert building the Rio Norte line!

  7. #27
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    Argument could be made future of CQB is a Benelli M4 full of anti-drone shells. Pump not optimal vs more than one drone, you might get the first shot but the drone behind the drone takes you out. With AI controlled solutions that first shot in serious doubt as well. Ping matters, your brain vs AI on the trigger = you lose every time.

  8. #28
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    If I ever had an inkling of a desire to own a KAC, this thread killed it lol.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanm View Post
    operations parts has had all of the above in the last six months Hammer—except the mk12 rail. They sell out really fast, sometimes gone before I read the email notification on being instock and I check email very regularly throughout the day.
    Interesting, as I’ve been subscribed to email alerts for each of those, and haven’t gotten anything. I’ll have to search my spam folder.

    All manufacturers are feeling the hurt from supply chain issues right now, which is probably why KAC has discontinued so many items and has so many others on back order. They produce all their products domestically, but they have to source materials from the same suppliers everyone else is having issues with. With another mystery disease popping up in China, I wouldn't be surprised if these supply chain issues continue indefinitely.

  10. #30
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    KAC is a non-commercial supplier to governments and militaries around the world first. Because of that, if you are on the commercial side, you will have to wait around for the table scraps. But as stated above you get a ridiculous amount of R&D and testing. Probably more than anyone else in the game right now if you want to put up with the BS.

    I have an SR25 APC that I got at retail during COVID. I sold a used SCAR 17 (that I actually got for free from a client) with a Razor 1-6 for more than what I paid for the SR. I love that gun and after swapping to a Tubbs spring it will shoot any ammo with or without a can. I have stacked 10 rounds sub-MOA 3 times and if I do my part she is sub-MOA all day.

    I also have an SR15 that I got on sale from Brownells and then sold the 16" upper for more than it was worth about a year ago and picked up a 14.5 upper for my lower. That gun is sub-MOA with match ammo and with 70gr TSX. It's just an AR though at the end of the day, I am not as in love with that gun as I am the 25. If it wasn't a sub-MOA 14.5 it would probably be culled. I really love the URX4 and the long lengths Knights makes for their guns. I have still not heard of a broken bolt with the E3 bolts but have secondary bolts for both that were insanely expensive and probably not worth it, but can always be resold for probably more than I paid.

    Unless the 25 falls in your lap lightly used or on sale I think the prices are too damn high and no longer worth it after the last price increase. That being said high 2k for the 15s is in line with Gucci ARs right now. The question is, is the space magic still as magical as it was 10 years ago or are you better off buying a Noveske, V7, SOLGW, Geissele, Cobalt, DD ect? I think as of right now, it's the latter.
    nawai

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