American Shooting Sports Council presenting President Reagan with Colt firearms...

[Diamondback]

You can say alot about old Ron, but that man loved this country, he could publicly speak and he had a great sense of humor!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgs-LaWyUJI

As opposed to His Incontinency the Pedophile-in-Chief, who only loves his Chinese and Ukrainian money and underage girls...

[Disciple]

They are a safety net for those who cannot engage in the shooting and handling of firearms without violating them. Learning how to function with them would literally prevent ALL unintentional shootings.

I am not defending Reagan's gun handling but I do take issue with the way The Four Rules are at times presented. As has been pointed out by others anyone carrying a holstered pistol above the ground floor of a multi-story building is clearly a violation. Shoulder holsters are probably genocide. Look at the way you paraphrased a rule: "all firearms are ALWAYS loaded." They're not and it's nuts to literally act like they are, like using bullet trap, eye and ear protection every time you disassemble a Glock, after passing city limits of course if it's illegal to discharge a firearm therein.

[SteyrAUG]

I am not defending Reagan's gun handling but I do take issue with the way The Four Rules are at times presented. As has been pointed out by others anyone carrying a holstered pistol above the ground floor of a multi-story building is clearly a violation. Shoulder holsters are probably genocide. Look at the way you paraphrased a rule: "all firearms are ALWAYS loaded." They're not and it's nuts to literally act like they are, like using bullet trap, eye and ear protection every time you disassemble a Glock, after passing city limits of course if it's illegal to discharge a firearm therein.

Holstered firearms are not being handled, thus rules for handling do not apply.

But when handling, "all firearms are always loaded" means even when I'm taking it apart to clean it I don't point it at people.

If people didn't point guns at people they didn't intend to shoot.
If people didn't put their fingers on triggers when they didn't intend to pull the trigger.
If people gave unloaded firearms the same level of respect that should be provided to LOADED firearms.

It would be virtually impossible to kill somebody by accident. That is the entire point of those rules. Lots and lots of people getting shot when it was completely preventable if they would just adhere to even 3 of the 4 basic rules of gun handling.

I'm probably coming off as an absolutist, but I don't care. I've known people who died and I've seen too many people get shot due to shithead gun handling and in every case the person who did it was "too experienced" to be bothered by those new guy rules which don't apply to special skills people regardless of the fact that there was zero reason at the time to violate the safe handling rules and the fact that the rules for safe handling would have prevented it.

There are guys who think they are born knowing how to ****, fight, shoot and drive when the reality is they aren't very good at any of those things.

We've all seen LEOs engage school shooters without muzzle sweeping ANYONE, who came OFF the trigger when they didn't have a target and in the case of the TN school shooter these guys were actually even engaging mechanical safeties while hunting bad guys. If they can do it, anyone can do it and I don't want to hear about the guys who are so "special" they need to violate rules of safe handling because the world is a 360 range.

And they are usually exactly the kind of dipshit that shoots somebody by "accident."

https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/01/us/ca...led/index.html

FRESNO, Calif. – A 20-year veteran sheriff’s deputy in Central California was killed by a bullet in the chest from a colleague’s gun in what officials said Tuesday appeared to be “a tragic accidental shooting.”
Deputy Sgt. Rod Lucas was having a conversation with a detective about how to carry their backup weapons when the shot was fired Monday, Fresno County Sheriff Margaret Mims said. The incident occurred at a sheriff’s office near the Fresno Yosemite International Airport.
Mims said Lucas, 46, and the detective were in a room with two other colleagues and there was no dispute, just a conversation about weapons safety.
“The detective had his weapon out. During this discussion, the detective’s weapon discharged,” the sheriff said. “Sgt. Lucas was struck by the bullet in his chest, and he dropped to the ground.”
It's a shame that failure to observe the most basic four rules of gun safety resulted in the death of officer Lucas. Had the detective not been pointing his weapon at or near Sgt. Lucas it would have been IMPOSSIBLE to shoot him, unintentionally or otherwise.
Unfortunately, Fresno County Sheriff Margaret Mims views the incident as similar to a car accident and doesn't understand it is completely preventable so no corrective actions will have been taken and it will only be a matter of time before a similar "accident" happens again.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Basic safety rules are simple (absent exceptions) by design. They exist to build discipline. To do things the same way, every time. If Jesus Christ himself handed me a gun telling me it was empty, I'd check it for myself. It's discipline, not high-skilled expertise, that keeps you and others safe.

The argument that an empty gun is empty by definition, so therefore Treat All Guns as Though They are Loaded = false, entirely misses the point.

[Disciple]

Holstered firearms are not being handled, thus rules for handling do not apply.

That's one way to relax the rigid presentation I am criticizing, but it then introduces others, so I'll come bad to it.

But when handling, "all firearms are always loaded" means even when I'm taking it apart to clean it I don't point it at people.

Yes, because you're not a simpleton and you understand the difference between falsely pretending that "all firearms are always loaded," and mitigating the risks induced by the fact that humans are fallible and will make mistakes.

If people didn't point guns at people they didn't intend to shoot.
If people didn't put their fingers on triggers when they didn't intend to pull the trigger.
If people gave unloaded firearms the same level of respect that should be provided to LOADED firearms.

It would be virtually impossible to kill somebody by accident.

If we carve out exceptions such as when "firearms are not being handled" I cannot agree with the conclusion.

If someone puts a loaded gun, bare, in a bad with other objects, that is still an objective hazard even if the gun is not being handled. Or a loaded gun that is not drop-safe.

Even if all those rules are being followed if a malfunctioning gun goes "full auto" in the hands of someone unprepared to deal with that, people nearby but behind the muzzle hemisphere may be accidentally shot.

I am not arguing against safe handling practice and discipline, but at some point in ones education a more nuanced understanding of risk mitigation is called for, as you have already demonstrated by not pointing a gun at someone while disassembling it, without behaving as though the gun were actually loaded. Nuance.

Basic safety rules are simple (absent exceptions) by design. They exist to build discipline. To do things the same way, every time. If Jesus Christ himself handed me a gun telling me it was empty, I'd check it for myself. It's discipline, not high-skilled expertise, that keeps you and others safe.

The argument that an empty gun is empty by definition, so therefore Treat All Guns as Though They are Loaded = false, entirely misses the point.

From my perspective it is my own point that is being missed. If "all guns are always loaded" there is no point in checking the gun that is handed to you as, after all, it is still loaded.

Do we insist that all airplanes are always (almost) out of gas and human flight must therefore be forbidden, or rather do we recognize that rigorous pre-flight checks with independent verification is a more functional risk mitigation of human error?

[SteyrAUG]

That's one way to relax the rigid presentation I am criticizing, but it then introduces others, so I'll come bad to it.



Yes, because you're not a simpleton and you understand the difference between falsely pretending that "all firearms are always loaded," and mitigating the risks induced by the fact that humans are fallible and will make mistakes.



If we carve out exceptions such as when "firearms are not being handled" I cannot agree with the conclusion.

If someone puts a loaded gun, bare, in a bad with other objects, that is still an objective hazard even if the gun is not being handled. Or a loaded gun that is not drop-safe.

Even if all those rules are being followed if a malfunctioning gun goes "full auto" in the hands of someone unprepared to deal with that, people nearby but behind the muzzle hemisphere may be accidentally shot.

I am not arguing against safe handling practice and discipline, but at some point in ones education a more nuanced understanding of risk mitigation is called for, as you have already demonstrated by not pointing a gun at someone while disassembling it, without behaving as though the gun were actually loaded. Nuance.

If your point is we are victims of the lowest common denominator then we are victims of the lowest common denominator.

As for malfunctions, your gun could be hit by a micro gamma ray burst and discharge so yes anything can happen.

But there are four PAINFULLY SIMPLE rules that would mitigate almost every unintentional shooting of a person that could ever happen and more importantly, there isn't a single REAL WORLD reason to not follow them that genuinely limits your defensive posture. People who deep conceal their handguns put themselves more at risk of responding to threats than people who follow the four rules of safe handling.

[Diamondback]

If your point is we are victims of the lowest common denominator then we are victims of the lowest common denominator.

As for malfunctions, your gun could be hit by a micro gamma ray burst and discharge so yes anything can happen.

But there are four PAINFULLY SIMPLE rules that would mitigate almost every unintentional shooting of a person that could ever happen and more importantly, there isn't a single REAL WORLD reason to not follow them that genuinely limits your defensive posture. People who deep conceal their handguns put themselves more at risk of responding to threats than people who follow the four rules of safe handling.

*LawDog from The LawDog Files has entered the chat*
One Shot Stop from a lowly .25...
https://thelawdogfiles.com/2006/06/d...is-rotter.html