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Thread: Effect on POI when occluding red dot sights

  1. #11
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    Meh. I still would like to try it. I actually was glassing small objects in my house the other day to try to simulate a sight pic on a 300-400 yard target since we haven't been out to the range in a few weeks. Looks like it's doable at distance if you slow down and focus.
    "What would a $2,000 Geissele Super Duty do that a $500 PSA door buster on Black Friday couldn't do?" - Stopsign32v

  2. #12
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    For CQB use, if you want the benefit of a constant brightness setting of a red dot and occluded is a good solution for you, just zero with the sight occluded and leave it that way. You now have the ability to move through different lighting and leave the dot alone. Verify at range in case the situation changes. Or forget it and move on.
    "We all got it comin"....Will Munny

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncas47 View Post
    For CQB use, if you want the benefit of a constant brightness setting of a red dot and occluded is a good solution for you, just zero with the sight occluded and leave it that way. You now have the ability to move through different lighting and leave the dot alone. Verify at range in case the situation changes. Or forget it and move on.
    This would potentiallu allow for a *lower brightness setting and longer battery life, as well. The dot is against a black background.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTF425 View Post
    I'm doing it because there were tenured members claiming that you'll be 12" plus off target at 25y if you use an occluded sight.

    I am 100% confident that's not true, but am gathering the necessary target data to support the hypothesis. I'm mostly curious to see how far it can be pushed more than anything. Magnified optics are coming later this week.
    I ran an Armsen OEG onna (.223) Galil in (very) early 3 gun for a while.
    Was not difficult to keep hits in A/C zone at 200 yds.
    This under Field/Timed conditions. 12” @ 25 yds margin of error at 25 yds is ridiculous.
    A true "Gun Guy" (or gal) should have familiarity and a modicum of proficiency with most all firearms platforms.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JediGuy View Post
    This would potentiallu allow for a *lower brightness setting and longer battery life, as well. The dot is against a black background.
    Exactly. The gun by my bed has been covered for years, guns that go outside remain uncovered. I'm not recommending this to anyone, it's just how it works for me. I have both eyes open all the time and focus on what I want to hit, it makes no difference to me covered or uncovered.
    ETA: My comp M4s have the ARD screwed in which seems to help keep the brightness fairly constant and I'm used to shooting with those also.
    Last edited by Uncas47; 04-28-24 at 08:53.
    "We all got it comin"....Will Munny

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTF425 View Post
    I'm doing it because there were tenured members claiming that you'll be 12" plus off target at 25y if you use an occluded sight.
    I am 100% confident that's not true, but am gathering the necessary target data to support the hypothesis.
    It's shooter dependent, and depends on the amount of phoria that person has. So, what your own results will only prove is what's true for you. In the old thread, what people were discussing was the POI change when you switch back and forth from occluding and looking through the same sight. If you zero occluded and use it that way, like an OEG, that will lessen the effect of a phoria if you have one. Note that phoria can change on the same person as the eye gets fatigued.

    If you zero looking through the sight, then use it occluded, that's when you'll see a difference, if you have a phoria. If you don't, then you may not see the effect.
    I think that a poll would be a good idea, with many people trying the SAME test, then chiming in with their results. Set up a rifle with red dot (this can be done at home) so that it's pointing out a window at a fixed point. Make sure it's in a rest or on a bipod and you don't move it. Look through the red dot, and confirm it's on the target. Flip the lens cover closed so you're using it occluded and see if the dot changes position on that target. If not, great. Your POI using the optic may be the same. If so, then you can see how much you'll be off.

    For me, it's at least a foot at 25 yds difference in the dot shift. Note that I am left handed and shoot rifles using my left eye looking through sights or optics. However I am right eye dominant, so when I occlude the sight I'm now using my right eye to look at the target while the left eye sees the dot and superimposes it. So, this may also be a factor why I'm seeing such a big shift.
    When I shoot pistol, I use my right eye (both eyes open). For me, the test is always the same - I see a significant difference in the position of the dot, every single time. YMMV.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by militarymoron View Post
    In the old thread, what people were discussing was the POI change when you switch back and forth from occluding and looking through the same sight.
    I still can't wrap my head around that massive of a POI difference. I didn't have my Aimpoint out this weekend to even mess with this.
    "What would a $2,000 Geissele Super Duty do that a $500 PSA door buster on Black Friday couldn't do?" - Stopsign32v

  8. #18
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    If this technique is a distraction for anyone for whatever reason I would advise against it. The small benefit is not worth any sacrifice in speed or accuracy. It's only useful if it provides you with an advantage.
    "We all got it comin"....Will Munny

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    I still can't wrap my head around that massive of a POI difference. I didn't have my Aimpoint out this weekend to even mess with this.
    Well it's kind of like a person with good vision and no astigmatism wondering why someone with astigmatism is seeing a shooting star or snowman instead of a distinct red dot.
    So, at 25 yds (75 ft), 1 foot equals less than one degree of angle. Look at a picture or clock on your wall about 7-8 feet away from you. Cross your eyes so you have two images (double vision). When I cross my eyes, the distance between the two images is about 4-5 feet depending on how hard I cross my eyes. That's about 30 degrees of eye misalignment.

    Not everyone's eyes are aligned perfectly when one eye is occluded, so a small amount of drift/misalignment - less than a degree, can result in one foot at 25 yds. When both eyes are open, they compensate so you don't get double vision. However, as we get older, our eyes can fatigue more easily. Ever been really tired and had trouble focusing? When I was much younger, I couldn't understand why my dad had to take his glasses off to thread a needle. Now I have to do the same. I can't focus on the front sight of my handgun with my normal glasses anymore etc.

    If you're don't experience it, you're fortunate, but need to understand that this is caused by differences in human vision, nothing to do with the optic or gun. If you can wrap your head around the different existing vision conditions that humans deal with on a daily basis, you can wrap your head around this

    Added - Ok, I figured out a great experiment. Grab your rifle and turn on your red dot. Close the front lens cover, so you're using it occluded. Point it at any fixed object. Then cross your eyes. The dot will move a LOT from one side to another. Play around with some eye misalignments (crossing your eyes a little, a lot etc). See how much the dot moves? Then just think about how little it takes for the eyes to be misaligned to change the POI at distance. I hope that helps with understanding and visualizing it. Let me know how it goes.
    Last edited by militarymoron; 04-29-24 at 17:48. Reason: Added more commentary

  10. #20
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    50 meters, MP15-22, Eotech, 2” stick-on target, CCI Clean.
    The setup:IMG_6644.jpeg

    Results:IMG_6645.jpegThe 1s represent strong eye only, the 2s are for both eyes open, and the Os are for occluded. 5 shots ea.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    RLTW

    “What’s New” button, but without GD: https://www.m4carbine.net/search.php...new&exclude=60 , courtesy of ST911.

    Disclosure: I am affiliated PRN with a tactical training center, but I speak only for myself. I have no idea what we sell, other than CLP and training. I receive no income from sale of hard goods.

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