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Thread: SBR, More than one upper

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    From what I've read, the ATF doesn't like nonsense on the Form. Multi caliber, ranges of overall lengths, multiple barrel lengths, etc.

    Pick a caliber and pick an OAL and Barrel length. Once you are approved, the gun IS AN SBR. You can make temporary barrel and caliber changes all you want.

    If you want to prolong your application process add a bunch of nonsense on the specifics... DIG?
    ATF's position is that you're Form 1 is an application to build a particular SBR. As such, it has an explicit caliber, barrel length, etc. on the moment when you build it and that is the information they want on the form.

    As for having multiple uppers, the key is to have a legal way to assemble every lower you have in your possession. If the only legal way you have to assemble a spare lower is as an unregistered SBR, using one of your spare uppers, then you could be found guilty of possession of an unregistered SBR.

    As long as you've got a 16"+ upper for every non-registered lower, you're golden.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtk View Post
    If the only legal way you have to assemble a spare lower is as an unregistered SBR, using one of your spare uppers, then you could be found guilty of possession of an unregistered SBR.
    I don't find this scenario to be completely impossible, but I think it's highly unrealistic. For example, I know a guy who uses his SBR for pistol and rifle caliber... i.e. he has a removeable mag block.

    Now if he went and bought a stripped lower, by your standard he could be guilty of possession of an unregistered SBR. That's absurd... but if they have a hard on for you, they can really make any claim they want.

    As long as you've got a 16"+ upper for every non-registered lower, you're golden.
    I can't imagine it's that cut and dry. What about these apes with 10 stripped lowers hiden all over their house?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    I don't find this scenario to be completely impossible, but I think it's highly unrealistic. For example, I know a guy who uses his SBR for pistol and rifle caliber... i.e. he has a removeable mag block.

    Now if he went and bought a stripped lower, by your standard he could be guilty of possession of an unregistered SBR. That's absurd... but if they have a hard on for you, they can really make any claim they want.



    I can't imagine it's that cut and dry. What about these apes with 10 stripped lowers hiden all over their house?
    Those "apes" are risking a felony conviction for posession of an unregistered SBR. Period. Yeah, it is unlikely they'll end up on ATF's radar, but I'm not one to rely on "keeping a low profile" as my defense against a felony conviction.

    In the Kent case, the ATF found the guy with an unregistered AR15 and a spare, short upper, which he claimed he purchased for spare parts. The prosecutor pushed two pins, replaced the long upper with a short one, and got a conviction for an unregistered SBR AR15.

    The precedent from the Thompson Center case addressed a similar situation, in that the kit in question could be assembled in a legal configuration or an illegal one. The court ruled that ATF had to assume the lawful method unless they had proof to the contrary.

    If your collection of parts leaves you no legal means to assemble one of your lowers, you've got all the elements necessary for ATF to pursue, and get, a felony conviction for an unregistered SBR. All the proof they need is your spare upper sitting on your spare stripped lower.

    Then again, some guys post openly on the internet about having a personally-registered NFA weapon stored in the same gun safe that their wife has access to when they're not around. That too is a felony, as ATF considers it an "untaxed transfer." Yet, they do it anyway, despite plenty of evidence to the contrary, written in plain English.

    It's all a question of how much risk you're willing to tolerate.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtk View Post
    The prosecutor pushed two pins, replaced the long upper with a short one, and got a conviction for an unregistered SBR AR15.
    Sounds like the prosecutor should have been the one charged.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtk View Post

    In the Kent case, the ATF found the guy with an unregistered AR15 and a spare, short upper, which he claimed he purchased for spare parts. The prosecutor pushed two pins, replaced the long upper with a short one, and got a conviction for an unregistered SBR AR15.
    So this was a case where the defendant didn't have ANY lower registered as a pistol or SBR (and thus no possible lawful use for the short barreled upper)?

    I just want to clarify because that changes the significance of this case.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    From what I've read, the ATF doesn't like nonsense on the Form. Multi caliber, ranges of overall lengths, multiple barrel lengths, etc.

    Pick a caliber and pick an OAL and Barrel length. Once you are approved, the gun IS AN SBR. You can make temporary barrel and caliber changes all you want.

    If you want to prolong your application process add a bunch of nonsense on the specifics... DIG?
    It used to be fairly common practice to list a barrel length range (i.e., 6"-16") and sometimes multi-caliber, especially for machineguns, and they'd get approved.

    Has ATF's view on this changed, and when did this happen?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbrowne1 View Post
    It used to be fairly common practice to list a barrel length range (i.e., 6"-16") and sometimes multi-caliber, especially for machineguns, and they'd get approved.

    Has ATF's view on this changed, and when did this happen?
    I've read accounts of this over the last year or so. It is the internut... so you can take it with a grain of salt. But I've read several accounts of people getting their form bounced back for this type of thing.

    As with anything ATF, it's not consistent.

  8. #18
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    I don't understand why people don't call the ATF office in Martinsburg instead of relying upon free internet advice on issues that could potentially land you in prison for 10 years with a felony conviction.

    My recent conversation with them indicates that after the lower is SBR'd with a specific barrel length and caliber, you write them a letter (certified return receipt would be a good idea IMHO) indicating that you are ADDING, NOT REPLACING an upper with X barrel length and Y caliber to SBR with Z serial number.

    Keep a copy of said letter with your NFA paperwork. With their current backlog there is no way to know when they will acknowledge your letter.

  9. #19
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    That's a good way to do it too! That's what a lot of people do infact.... do.

    Get the stamp first.... then start bugging them with the "speshul needs"

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbrowne1 View Post
    So this was a case where the defendant didn't have ANY lower registered as a pistol or SBR (and thus no possible lawful use for the short barreled upper)?

    I just want to clarify because that changes the significance of this case.
    Yeah. How did ATF come to be involved with this Kent person? I can't remember if I'm familiar with this case or not.

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