Alternate AR Calibers - Training Value

[Littlelebowski]

I really don't see how 9mm or .22LR make a compelling choice over 5.45. My 5.45 is one of my favorite weapons.

[rob_s]

My thoughts and experiences....

.22 rifles/uppers/conversions-
We have one of our drills shooters that comes out and shoots his .22, and for a lot of what we do it's a viable alternative. However, for nights where we're doing hammers and triples, speed reloads, etc. the .22 is a detriment. The bolt doesn't lock back so speed reloads are not done the same way. The minimal recoil makes working on hammers a joke since it's nowhere near the same as firing 5.56 doing the same drill. The only time you really see a use for the .22 is in trigger control with accurate, sighted fire, and even then it could be debated as even doing controlled pairs is different with the reaction time between shots being faster with the .22

9mm rifles/uppers-
If you go upper only, the mag block becomes an issue since none of the bottom-load mag blocks are of any decent quality, and few if any of them activate the bolt hold-open. The best of the blocks, the Hahn top-load requires removing the bolt catch, which effectively means you need a dedicated 9mm firearm, not just a lower. The 9mm can actually have more recoil than the 5.56 which means that again hammers and triples, and any other fast shooting may not translate back to the 5.56. While the bolt may lock back on an empty mag, depending on the block used, the magazine is a completely different geometry to reloads are not really the same. 9mm also has a reputation for being finicky and hard on internals, so the cost of replacing these parts and the time spent getting the gun to run should be included in your calculations. and finally, magazines are an issue, and it would appear that C-Products may now be the OEM producer for Colt, which would be a shame since their magazines contribute a lot to the finicky reputation and reliability issues.

5.45 rifles/uppers-
To truly see any appreciable savings you need to go with the corrosive ammo, otherwise you (almost) may as well be shooting Wolf or Barnaul 5.56. This presents all sorts of obvious problems with regards to cleaning of the gun. At something like a 3-day training class away from home you may have limited access to things like a garden hose and/or an air compressor, which would be my preferred way of cleaning the gun. I suppose a bathtub and loaner hair dryer from the hotel may suffice in a pinch. The other issue here, like the 9mm, is that C-products is pretty much sole-source for the magazines. Any time I have to rely on them for something, I get nervous. Some people appear to be able to get the 5.45 to run with 5.56 magazines, others not so much.

Finally, and across all calibers, remember to factor in the cost of mimicing your primary setup. If your primary is an SBR with an S&B Short Dot and a rail system holding a Surefire Scout, mimicing that in the alternate caliber can get extremely expensive. Then factor in alternate magazines as well, and I think that at least 10 is the minimum there. Sure, you can go simpler or use knockoffs since it's not your primary, but the less you copy your primary the less the benefit of the training. Plus, the use of knockoffs like the SPOT on anything other than a .22 may lead to reliability issues.

Overall, I think that the 5.45 is the most viable if they become readily available again. I wouldn't use it on the same lower as my primary though due to possible corrosion issues and hammer spring issues and would build a dedicated gun. I would limit the mimicry to sight/optics, grip, stock, and sling and not worry so much about light and rail system, and just use the primary in any low-light shoots. Even the 5.45 Silver Bear is about $.26/round vs. the 5.56 which is $.33/round (Aim Surplus prices for both). I'm not sure who has the corrosive stuff in stock right now.

[schleism1]

Good observations. To be sure there are trade offs with each option and application. I've found that for some of my students the access to a less expensive caliber like the 9mm or 22 means the difference between some quality trigger time and little to no trigger time so we roll with what we can get. Imperfect solutions to imperfect problems.

Maybe as ammo continues to be an issue cost wise we will see better training tools n these calibers being developed.
We continue on!

[Jay Cunningham]

5.45 rifles/uppers-
To truly see any appreciable savings you need to go with the corrosive ammo, otherwise you (almost) may as well be shooting Wolf or Barnaul 5.56. This presents all sorts of obvious problems with regards to cleaning of the gun. At something like a 3-day training class away from home you may have limited access to things like a garden hose and/or an air compressor, which would be my preferred way of cleaning the gun. I suppose a bathtub and loaner hair dryer from the hotel may suffice in a pinch. The other issue here, like the 9mm, is that C-products is pretty much sole-source for the magazines. Any time I have to rely on them for something, I get nervous. Some people appear to be able to get the 5.45 to run with 5.56 magazines, others not so much.

Agree, but I'm not too worried about the gun. Mechanical scrubbing (regular cleaning) will take care of almost everything. The hotel room coffee maker can take care of the inside of the gas tube and the barrel. Agree about the CP magazines - not much can be done right now.

Finally, and across all calibers, remember to factor in the cost of mimicing your primary setup. If your primary is an SBR with an S&B Short Dot and a rail system holding a Surefire Scout, mimicing that in the alternate caliber can get extremely expensive. Then factor in alternate magazines as well, and I think that at least 10 is the minimum there. Sure, you can go simpler or use knockoffs since it's not your primary, but the less you copy your primary the less the benefit of the training. Plus, the use of knockoffs like the SPOT on anything other than a .22 may lead to reliability issues.

Agree and I have been addressing this in my own way. For instance, I have chosen the M4S as the optic on my primary (Colt LE6920) but I have chosen a used ML2 (got it for cheaper than a C3) in a QRP mount for practice. I have a Troy BUIS on my primary but I'll put a MagPul on my practice weapon. I kept the stocks the same (SOPMOD) because I feel that the cheekweld is an important thing to maintain fidelity with, but I picked up an older, used, beat-up SOPMOD (still 100% functional) to use on the 5.45mm.

Overall, I think that the 5.45 is the most viable if they become readily available again. I wouldn't use it on the same lower as my primary though due to possible corrosion issues and hammer spring issues and would build a dedicated gun. I would limit the mimicry to sight/optics, grip, stock, and sling and not worry so much about light and rail system, and just use the primary in any low-light shoots. Even the 5.45 Silver Bear is about $.26/round vs. the 5.56 which is $.33/round (Aim Surplus prices for both). I'm not sure who has the corrosive stuff in stock right now.

I do have a dedicated lower. I use a DD Omega on my practice but a DD 12.0 Lite FSP on my primary. I agree that I would simply use my primary for low light. Certian things are much more important for fidelity such as how the weapon contacts the body and how sights align.

[markm]

Reloading is another way to go. I could probably shoot for another 2 years without buying any addtional ammo or components and still have some reloads left over.

There's really no alternate caliber AR that's even slightly appealing to me. The shortfalls of all of them have already been pointed out. I've flirted with a 9mm conversion several times, but when I get into the research of the whole thing, I shit can the idea every time.

[sinister]

Anything other than service ammo (what you're going to use at work or at home) will help you maintain and sustain your skills at the compromise of something -- recoil control, timing, aiming, blast, flash, whatever).

It will help, but it won't be the same. I shoot a lot of MP-5 and .22 when I live in a city or have to use indoor facilities that don't take 5.56 Ball.

The best I can submit is what a TF-160 pilot once gave me --

"Simulation does NOT equal duplication."

Bottom line if you use something as a stand-in you're sacrificing something.

Any day you can drop the hammer on a live cap counts as a day of training, regardless of caliber. Sight picture, sight alignment, trigger control, follow-through, and recovery all contribute to sustaining and maintaining baseline skills. Just don't forget to mix it up with service ammo.

All that said, I'd recommend reloading. I've got a Dillon 550 that's paid for itself many, many times over.

[Littlelebowski]

5.45 rifles/uppers-
To truly see any appreciable savings you need to go with the corrosive ammo, otherwise you (almost) may as well be shooting Wolf or Barnaul 5.56. This presents all sorts of obvious problems with regards to cleaning of the gun. At something like a 3-day training class away from home you may have limited access to things like a garden hose and/or an air compressor, which would be my preferred way of cleaning the gun. I suppose a bathtub and loaner hair dryer from the hotel may suffice in a pinch. The other issue here, like the 9mm, is that C-products is pretty much sole-source for the magazines. Any time I have to rely on them for something, I get nervous. Some people appear to be able to get the 5.45 to run with 5.56 magazines, others not so much.

Overall, I think that the 5.45 is the most viable if they become readily available again. I wouldn't use it on the same lower as my primary though due to possible corrosion issues and hammer spring issues and would build a dedicated gun. I would limit the mimicry to sight/optics, grip, stock, and sling and not worry so much about light and rail system, and just use the primary in any low-light shoots. Even the 5.45 Silver Bear is about $.26/round vs. the 5.56 which is $.33/round (Aim Surplus prices for both). I'm not sure who has the corrosive stuff in stock right now.

The lower on my 5.45 has no noticeable corrosion after over 3K rounds of corrosive ammo. Not sure what you're getting at with the hammer spring comment unless it's the issue of having a different trigger pull than your other guns as the hammer spring will work with 5.56 uppers.

I do have a bit of corrosion on my 5.45 bolt but it impedes function not a bit and is my own fault after shooting the heck of the weapon in a very humid environment and storing it in said environment for over 48 hours.

A bathtub and hairdryer are more than enough. You don't need the compressed air in my experience. Simply hitting the gun with water, shaking out the water, letting it drip dry for a few hours, and then adding more lube will work fine.

Since you mentioned the hotel room, why not just prop it over the vent on the heater that is so common in most hotel rooms?

Finally, don't buy a 5.45! The ammo is drying up, the gun is unreliable, etc

[rob_s]

I don't have to buy the upper/gun to buy the ammo.

Eventually all of you that bought the guns will need more.