Interesting shooting

[Cold Zero]

I wonder if the first guy in the stack transitioned?

Whatever happened to follow through and shooting till the threat falls from your sights...

[Gutshot John]

From the looks of the wound it looks like his head may have been turned and the shot may not have hit square...there may have been enough angle that the round just skimmed around the outside of his skull, thus the large-ish tear in his forehead.

You can tell that his forehead has a long surgical incision if you look closely so it's not entirely the bullet.

The bullet hit and and glanced to his right, the surgeon increased the size of the wound to the left in order to debride it.

I'd agree with those that say that this is more about shot placement than terminal performance.

All that said, none of the SWAT guys nor the hostage were hurt during the entry. I feel sorry for the kid, he's FfL.

[C4IGrant]

One thing I would like to point out as a possible cause of the 9mm failure with the MP5SD is this. I've worked with three different Officers from three different agencies that have been issued HK MP5SD's.

Each and every one of them was running 147 gr. subsonic ammunition in the guns until I explained to them how the suppressor system on the HK works and to maintain standard ammunition in it. It all boils down to the agencies purchased the guns and issued them out with zero detailed training on them other than firing qualifications. The Officers and agencies all had heard to use subsonic ammunition with suppressors and just ran with it.

It may be possible that this is what occured with this shooting. Subsonic ammunition utilized with then more velocity bled off.

But that's all just a guess.

It is my understanding that they were running some form of +P in the gun (am trying to verify the round).


C4

[C4IGrant]

Okay from the pic posted, the guy looks like a mouth breathing trog-la-dite. Thick skull small brain cavity. My wife works the ER (RN 26 yrs) at an inner city hosp. She has seen numerous 'walk ins' 6+ in the last year (under their own power) that had numerous hits with 9mm. The latest had one the the arm, two leg, two stomach, two chest, drove himself to the er, alert till surgery. I know shot placement is critical but the wife would just as soon carry "a big ****ing rock than a 9mm" her words not mine. She simply doesn't trust its stopping power.

FWIW she carries a Kimber CDP Ultra .45

I think ANY pistol caliber would have caused the same thing. The only one that I think might of stood a chance is a 10mm or 357SIG.

Shot placement is EVERYTHING with most generally any types of ammo.


C4

[C4IGrant]

I wonder if the first guy in the stack transitioned?

Whatever happened to follow through and shooting till the threat falls from your sights...

Don't know. I am lead to believe that he was VERY close to the guy when he pulled the trigger on his AR. I personally would have muzzle struck him and then either tackled him to the ground or transitioned.

Typically, when the lead guy gets a malfunction, he will either peel off from the stack or transition (depending on how far the bad guy is).

I am trying to get more details as I have the #1 guys e-mail address.


C4

[C4IGrant]

I wonder if he was shot with a 9mm frangible training round.

Negative.


C4

[C4IGrant]

We've had one or two Federal PREMIUM .223 rounds (not practice stuff) do that over the years. I would never carry Commercial Federal ammo for defensive purposes.

I believe that they were using the Tactical Federal load.

The #1 guy was apparently PISSED at Federal (well no shit) and had a little discussion with them recently.

I am sure that conversation was friendly.


C4

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Who was it that said,

Thw two loudest sounds are 'Click, when you expect bang' and 'Bang when you expect click'.

[Gutshot John]

I think ANY pistol caliber would have caused the same thing. The only one that I think might of stood a chance is a 10mm or 357SIG.

Shot placement is EVERYTHING with most generally any types of ammo.


C4

Actually without more information I would bet that the ER story was more about shot placement as well.

Two well-placed shots in the chest and drove himself to the hospital? Given that most inner-city types I've dealt with call paramedics for a bad cold, it seems odd that he would have driven himself when shot 5 times unless none of the wounds were very serious. In which case it's not about the caliber.

[Cold Zero]

Don't know. I am lead to believe that he was VERY close to the guy when he pulled the trigger on his AR. I personally would have muzzle struck him and then either tackled him to the ground or transitioned.

Typically, when the lead guy gets a malfunction, he will either peel off from the stack or transition (depending on how far the bad guy is).

I am trying to get more details as I have the #1 guys e-mail address.


C4

Your points are well taken. At 10' transitioning would be a good move. At less than say 5' muzzle striking, tackling, going hands on, quickly followed by gang tackling him could work also.

Please fill us in on what the email from #1 guy says. Lots of good learning points in this topic.