Another nail in the coffin for the US auto industry...

[Left Sig]

Good knowledge on the diesel stuff, Left Sig. Now what's the environmental impact on buying a clean gas engine that might last say 200K miles versus a 300-400K mile diesel engine?

Thanks. I don't design the things, but I've spent 5 years supporting their manufacture. Until recently, one of my (many) responsibilities was ensuring the process that torques all those 26K psi injector fuel fittings produced zero leaks, but still provided acceptable production yields.

To answer your question, if the diesel engine lasts twice as long, then you save all the energy involved in manufacturing the second gasoline engine that would need to go as far. That includes everything from mining the ore, extracting the iron, pouring the block and head, and all the machining & assembly - for every single component. That's a lot of power that has to be generated somewhere usually by burning something. But diesels are most costly to build in the first place so it's not like it would save you half the money and energy.

This kind of cradle-to-grave approach to energy conservation has shown that hybrids consume more total energy over the entire life cycle even though they burn less gas during operation.

As far as emissions goes, the move to low-sulfur diesel fuel (500 to 15 ppm) in the beginning of 2007 was a huge step forward in reducing diesel emissions. In addition to removing the stink and acid rain potential of sulfur emissions, it also allowed the addition of catalytic controls for NOx and particulates that would have been ruined by sulfur. But the problem with NOx emissions is that they are proportional to heat. Running a diesel hotter at higher compression ratios improves its efficiency, but creates more NOx. So to reduce NOx to gas engine levels you either sacrifice fuel economy or you add after treatment (urea injection) on top of all the other emissions controls. The higher injection pressures being looked at now atomize the fuel even finer to improve the burn. The particulate traps can catch most of the soot, but they do have to be burned off now and then.

As far as I understand it, the US emissions standards are now set by the type of vehicle without regard to the type of fuel. Everything a manufacturer sells in that class (light duty vehicle, light truck, medium duty, based on GVWR) has to average out to meet the overall standard.

So that means that any diesel vehicle you buy starting with the 2007 model year will meet the same emissions standards as any gasoline vehicle. The 2010 standards are even tighter, but still the same regardless of fuel type. So again, there is no real difference. The problem is all the tricks you have to do with the diesels to get them to meet the standards makes them more expensive, heavier, and less efficient. The addition of urea injection (instead of stupid high injection pressures) is just another thing that will add cost and drive customers away. Who wants another fluid level that has to be monitored and filled?

I should add that diesel fuel has more energy content per unit volume, hence the better fuel economy, but it take more oil and more energy at the refinery to make a gallon of diesel versus a gallon of gas, so the two factors basically wash out.

Still, many diesel car owners love that they can go 600+ between fill ups.

[chadbag]

Now, we do have to admit that one of the big problems with the (former) Big-3 is their lack of truly compelling products compared to the Japanese and the Germans. Quality has lagged, but Volkswagen has proven in the last 10 years that consumers will look past quality issues if they really like the car. If you look at the numbers, VW historically is pretty bad on quality.

I don't know. My VWs since the late 80s have all been no maintenance except the normal wear and tear stuff. And the various reports etc don't rate VW down any more on quality.

As for preferring the overseas models - I felt the same when I worked for Ford in Detroit in the mid 90's. The Euro-market Modeo was better than the Contour/Mystique and should have been sold in the US relatively unchanged. The American marketing pukes decided Americans don't want Euro cars and redesigned them into bland rental fleet vehicles. The Australian market Falcon 4DR sedan with RWD and a Mustang drivetrain was a blast. I got to drive one with the steering on the other side in Dearborn and I'd have killed to have one of those.

I came to the conclusion that the marketing people were doing all of their customer clinics with Detroit area retirees and housewives who had the free time to attend. If they were from the Detroit area they were already programmed from birth to hate foreign cars, so they always led the marketing pukes down the wrong path.

VW unfortunately does the same crap. They have awesome cars in Germany and all we get is americanized crap.

[Jay Cunningham]

Here's a typical story of what my wife as a Director of HR has to deal with on a daily basis. A supervisor needed to get a critical job done. He asked for a volunteer to take some overtime. A volunteer was found and the job got done. The union is now grieving said action because the senior person on the job was not offered the over time. Now the company has to pay the overtime to the senior person on the job though he did not work for it. This is at a company that has already conducted layoffs and is contemplating more. It doesn't take much imagination to envision how thousands of these actions can bleed a company to death.

That's exactly the union's job. The supervisor violated the contract and the union grieved it. That's how it works - the company and the union both signed that piece of paper. The supervisor could have played by the rules but he didn't want to because the job was "critical" so he went the convenient route.

[CarlosDJackal]

Dont deal with those states. Problem solved.

Abandoning a market segment is never a good idea for any business that can still experience a positive cash flow from that market. A reduced profit is a heck of a lot better than no profit whatsoever.

If any of the auto companies were to withdraw from a State like California which has one of the highest number of cars per capita in the US and maybe the world; the effect not only to that manufacturer, but also to the smaller businesses supporting that manufacturer would be catastrophic.

Within the state alone the number of dealers that would have to close their doors would result a huge loss of jobs for salesmen, mechanics, truck drivers, auto parts specialists. Not to mention the other businesses that support them like car washes, gas stations, shipping companies, auto parts distributors, tire manufacturers, auto accessory manufacturers, facility security providers, warehouse workers, tow truck companies, junk yards, Used Car Sellers, recyclers, etc. Then there are the "other" smaller businesses like auto detailing, Custom Shops, paint, body and fender shops, third-party maintenance facilities, etc. Plus, this would put an additional burden on the Unemployment Insurance and Welfare Funding for that state.

Add to that the jobs that will be affected outside that state such as the auto factory workers, supporting parts manufacturers, inter-state auto transport companies, and the additional burden an action like this would put on whichever state these jobs might be located in.

What you consider as "problem solved" is not really such if you were to start peeling that onion that is Free Enterprise. In the end, we will all have to bear the burden of such a failure whether we like it or not.

The answer is not to bow out, the answer is to fight these ridiculous laws at the local level but at the same time work on a contingency to meet the new "standards" they may set. JM2CW.

[CarlosDJackal]

...VW unfortunately does the same crap. They have awesome cars in Germany and all we get is americanized crap.

This happens with high-end products as well. Just ask the USCG how their Dauphin Rescue helicopters fared when they had to "Americanize" them as dictated by procurement regulations. Compare their aircraft's performance and safety record to that of the MD State Police, who did not have to replace anything to meet import and procurement requirements.

[Left Sig]

For those that didn't know, urea is the primary component in urine. So if you can't get it to meet emissions standards, PISS ON IT!

Here's a typical story of what my wife as a Director of HR has to deal with on a daily basis. A supervisor needed to get a critical job done. He asked for a volunteer to take some overtime. A volunteer was found and the job got done. The union is now grieving said action because the senior person on the job was not offered the over time. Now the company has to pay the overtime to the senior person on the job though he did not work for it. This is at a company that has already conducted layoffs and is contemplating more. It doesn't take much imagination to envision how thousands of these actions can bleed a company to death.

The unworked overtime scam has been present in every union plant I've worked in (4 so far). Overtime "rights" are usually spelled out in the contract, whether by seniority, equalized by lowest hours, job classification, etc. So it is up to management to follow the contract. But there are also a lot of people who play the game. They hide so they don't get asked, they tell the boss not to bother asking them for overtime and then when he doesn't they claim they would have worked THIS time, they fail to notify the boss that they still hold a qualification for overtime on a particular job even though they don't currently hold the job, etc. Low hour equalized usually generate tons of errors because of record keeping errors about who had the lowest hours, and when the list was updated, etc.

The whole idea is to get paid for not working. And lots of people get paid a lot. This has been the practice for decades. I once had to approve pay for a guy that wasn't asked for weekend overtime by one of the supervisors that worked for me - two full days 16 hours each, Saturday @ 1.5x time, Sunday @ 2x time. That's more than a week's pay. The guy knew full well what was being offered, he just knew if he didn't get asked directly, he could get paid for not working. And it's always the supervisor who has to find and ask each employee. It's never the employee's responsibility to go to the supervisor and inquire about overtime and volunteer.

My company ended this practice more than a year ago. If someone is missed for overtime because management makes an error, that person is offered a "makeup" overtime session so they can work the hours they were "unfairly" denied. The union said "You can't do that!", and we said "Oh, yes we can!"

Would you care to take a guess how many people accepted the "makeup" sessions when they knew they would actually have to work?

[chadbag]

That's exactly the union's job. The supervisor violated the contract and the union grieved it. That's how it works - the company and the union both signed that piece of paper. The supervisor could have played by the rules but he didn't want to because the job was "critical" so he went the convenient route.

Lebowski was not saying the union was doing other than. He was saying that this is the sort if crap that unions foist on businesses in the contract negotiations and the inefficiencies that they introduce in the market

[Jay Cunningham]

Our company had record profits last year and just received the highest possible industry rating after a recent outside evaluation - the highest rating in 33 years.

Afterward the CEO sent out an email letting all the salaried employees know that they will not be getting any raises and that they can no longer count on bonuses nor can they bank their vacation. Of course the represented employees are unaffected - such is life. Our engineers tried to unionize last year but just barely got shot down. I make about twice as much as our typical engineer, and I don't even have a four year degree.

I know I should feel very guilty about this and give it up on principle, but I'll take a pass and keep collecting that nice paycheck. You know - the one I don't really earn simply because I happen to be a union member in a non "right to work" state.

[Littlelebowski]

And I'll go on collecting my paycheck from my union free company that isn't cutting wages or bonuses.

I see what the union (in this case the Teamsters) does firsthand through my wife. They make it impossible to discipline any of the workers and promote through longevity, not competence. If any of you think what the union negotiated regarding overtime for the senior person is right, well I don't understand you and never will. You don't have a "right" to more money, you earn it in my world. Other nonunion workers having to pay for the union's ridiculous demands is unsat in my book. UAW is reaping what they sowed (of course they'll get their Democratic buddies to bail them out) and I'll be damned if I buy another union made vehicle. Now if Toyota would just make a diesel pickup......

I don't mind local unions. I do mind nationalized unions that cripple America and tell their people how to vote. I do mind closed shops. I do believe in the secret ballot; an American tradition the unions apparently aren't so keen on. I don't believe the unions serve any valid purpose in this day of OSHA and workplace laws, other than to promote a parasitic, self sustaining, self appointed guarantor of higher wages and less work for its members. I also won't be a member of an organization that supports the Democratic party.

[Left Sig]

Our company had record profits last year and just received the highest possible industry rating after a recent outside evaluation - the highest rating in 33 years.

Afterward the CEO sent out an email letting all the salaried employees know that they will not be getting any raises and that they can no longer count on bonuses nor can they bank their vacation. Of course the represented employees are unaffected - such is life. Our engineers tried to unionize last year but just barely got shot down. I make about twice as much as our typical engineer, and I don't even have a four year degree.

I know I should feel very guilty about this and give it up on principle, but I'll take a pass and keep collecting that nice paycheck. You know - the one I don't really earn simply because I happen to be a union member in a non "right to work" state.

So what job do you do?