Got any 10mm data?

[Low Drag]

The test link states:

However, there is NO FBI protocol test event using "4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt" Likewise if the test was conducted using "all FBI protocols", as stated, then where are the bare gel, heavy clothing, auto glass, sheet steel, and wall board test results? What is "frag nasty"? That is most assuredly NOT an FBI protocol description of projectile performance--for an FBI protocol test, a more accurate description would include the % fragmentation. Finally, the FBI protocol requires 5 shots for each test event; it is not clear, but it appears most of these are single shot, with a few double shot events listed. It would also be nice to know the gel calibration results or at least if the blocks were within spec.

Because of these numerous discrepancies, I expressed my skepticism...

I think the term AND before the description of the denim/cotton is key.

[USSA-1]

Given that the ideal performance for the 10mm was deemed by the FBI to be a 180gr Sierra JHP at 980fps, what point is there in using the 10mm when the .40S&W will do exactly that in a smaller package with lower manufacturing costs on ammunition. From my perspective, it makes little sense to use the 10mm for anti personnel use given that the common service calibers easily meet the penetration requirements in FBI protocols.

While the FBI did eventually settle on the 180gr. at 950 fps standard, it should also be remembered that part of the reason for adopting this "standard" was that the factory 10mm loadings were deemed too difficult for the new agents to effectively shoot. Prior to this issue, full power 10mm loads were being considered to duty issue. This intent seems to indicate the FBI was satisfied with the terminal performance of full power 10mm loads. When they finally conceded is power issue, the decision was made to reduce the 10mm round to lowest power level that would still meet the minumum performance standards. This standard eventually morphed into the 40S&W, but I think it's important to remember that at the time the reduced 10mm load was introduced there were a lot of unhappy FBI Agents in both command and rank-n-file that wanted the more powerful load.

I think it should also be remembered that the 12" standard was defined as a minimum with 18" being maximum "desired." I would much rather have a round on the higher end of the penetration scale, somewhere around 16-17", but that's my preference.

The 10mm really offers nothing over the service calibers except excessive penetration with higher sectional density loads. The .40S&W usually equals the 10mm in total permanent crush cavity volume, and the .45acp exceeds the 10mms crush cavity volume given that the average attacker torso will only be 7-10" from front to back.

I'll have to disagree with you this. Excessive penetration is quite dependant on load selection. The 40 only matches the 10mm in total crush volume when loaded to similar velocities. When using proper load selection, the 10mm exceeds the 45acp in expansion without excessive penetration. While the previously listed gelatin data may be open to criticism for not stricly adhering to the FBI testing protocols, look at some of the data. I seriously doubt that conforming to the testing requirements will significantly change the 10mm performance, but if we look at these "indicators", good God man, look at what the 10mm is capable of doing! Close to 1 inch in expansion with penetration almost smack in the middle of the 12-18" standard.

180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"

Making the big assumption that a person can effectively shoot these loads (and I realize thats a big assumption) sign me up!

Where are you getting the average torso measurement of 7-10"? Is that the vital zone distance or total torso measurement?

USSA-1

[ToddG]

Those Gold Dot numbers need to be verified by another tester before I'd give them any credence. Historically, the Gold Dot design has dramatically over-expanded and folded back in on itself (leaving a smaller than optimal recovered expanded diameter) when pushed past its intended velocity envelope.

As for the FBI, it's important to remember that the 10mm was chosen literally as a political compromise to end an internal war between the 9mm and .45 camps.

[Low Drag]

While the FBI did eventually settle on the 180gr. at 950 fps standard, it should also be remembered that part of the reason for adopting this "standard" was that the factory 10mm loadings were deemed too difficult for the new agents to effectively shoot. Prior to this issue, full power 10mm loads were being considered to duty issue. This intent seems to indicate the FBI was satisfied with the terminal performance of full power 10mm loads. When they finally conceded is power issue, the decision was made to reduce the 10mm round to lowest power level that would still meet the minumum performance standards. This standard eventually morphed into the 40S&W, but I think it's important to remember that at the time the reduced 10mm load was introduced there were a lot of unhappy FBI Agents in both command and rank-n-file that wanted the more powerful load.

I think it should also be remembered that the 12" standard was defined as a minimum with 18" being maximum "desired." I would much rather have a round on the higher end of the penetration scale, somewhere around 16-17", but that's my preference.



I'll have to disagree with you this. Excessive penetration is quite dependant on load selection. The 40 only matches the 10mm in total crush volume when loaded to similar velocities. When using proper load selection, the 10mm exceeds the 45acp in expansion without excessive penetration. While the previously listed gelatin data may be open to criticism for not stricly adhering to the FBI testing protocols, look at some of the data. I seriously doubt that conforming to the testing requirements will significantly change the 10mm performance, but if we look at these "indicators", good God man, look at what the 10mm is capable of doing! Close to 1 inch in expansion with penetration almost smack in the middle of the 12-18" standard.



Making the big assumption that a person can effectively shoot these loads (and I realize thats a big assumption) sign me up!

Where are you getting the average torso measurement of 7-10"? Is that the vital zone distance or total torso measurement?

USSA-1

Very well stated.

The .40 S&W was developed as a 10mm lite if you will. For those of you about to get "passionate" about it..... To put it directly it was developed for girl agents and men with small hands. (and we know what that means..... )

I can only add one thing to USSA-1's reply....... The 10mm is the most versatile of the auto loading cartridges out there.
Load it down for 2 legged threats, load it up for 4 legged threats. For those of you who load out with an AR15 for self defense an think of it as a 100 yard weapon, have a look at the 10mm. It's nice to have ammo campadibility between your side arm and long arm.

[USSA-1]

Those Gold Dot numbers need to be verified by another tester before I'd give them any credence. Historically, the Gold Dot design has dramatically over-expanded and folded back in on itself (leaving a smaller than optimal recovered expanded diameter) when pushed past its intended velocity envelope.

That would certainly be some good information to confirm! Yet another reason for some updated testing with the newer bullet designs.

As for the FBI, it's important to remember that the 10mm was chosen literally as a political compromise to end an internal war between the 9mm and .45 camps.

No doubt about that!

The 10mm is the most versatile of the auto loading cartridges out there.

It certainly can operate in several enviroments quite well and let's not forget that it makes an outstanding submachine gun round. The nicest, most effective sub-gun I ever had the pleasure to shoot was the 10mm MP-5. It would drive poppers over at 100 yards like they were hit with a sledgehammer.

Sure would like to see an 10mm, AR platform with some good magazines.

Well, a man can dream, can't he?

USSA-1

[ToddG]

"The transition from the 170gr Norma to the 180gr jacketed hollow point at around 1000fps is not a control issue has some has speculated."

SA Patrick's statements notwithstanding, I've worked with two men who were at FTU when the 10mm was adopted and both of them have stated to me that the reason a reduced velocity load was selected was because weaker shooters struggled with the full power 10mm. These were instructors on the line dealing with new agents and reporting their troubles back up the chain of command.

This version of events was also affirmed for me by a former FBI FTU Unit Chief.

The agency's official reasoning may have been that losing all that velocity had no effect on terminal performance, but a reduced recoil load was explored only because it needed to be reduced recoil.

[Spooky130]

Here's my toy to take advantage of 10mm:



Now what to run in it? I currently have 180gr Federal JHPs - nothing fancy.
Just a HK MP5/40 kit with a 10mm barrel on a US receiver all SBR'd.

Spooky

[Low Drag]

Gosh. I got into on line forums (long time ago) over some .40 S&W guy carping the .40 out performs the 10mm or that the 10mm is "too much".

It goes on.


I guess:

the .38 Sp out performs the .357 mag.....
the 380 spanks the 9mm.........
the .44 Sp is superior to the .44 mag

and on
and on
and on.......

Get a gun that fits your hand, that you shoot well, that's reliable and move on to developing your software. Forget about the hardware.

Given all that if some nice fellow has some newer 10mm data please email it to me or PM.

Thanks

[Marcus L.]

the .38 Sp out performs the .357 mag.....
the 380 spanks the 9mm.........
the .44 Sp is superior to the .44 mag

Obviously you did not take the time to read my posts and understand my reasoning backed up by credible sources. I advise you to do more than browse the internet for snipits of information and read books and journals by Dr. Martin Fackler, Shawn Dodson, Duncan MacPherson, and Urey Patrick.

.38spl 135gr+P (900fps): (Penetration/Expansion) Speer GD
Bare Gel: 12.3”/.63”
Through Denim: 12.2”/.61”
Through Heavy Cloth: 12.2”/.60”
Through Wallboard: 12.1”/.66”
Through Plywood: 12”/.58”
Through Steel: 16.5”/.40”
Through Auto Glass: 9.4”/.48”

.357magnum 125gr(1450fps): (Penetration/Expansion) Speer GD
Bare Gel: 13.5”/.59”
Through Denim: 15.9”/.57”
Through Heavy Cloth: 16.9”/.55”
Through Wallboard: 14.7”/.62”
Through Plywood: 16.0”/.60”
Through Steel: 21.7”/.44”
Through Auto Glass: 12.8”/.62”

......357magnum beats .38spl due to better overall characteristics such as higher operating pressure, significantly higher velocity which equals greater momentum, and significantly larger powder charge.

.380 95gr(1000fps): (Penetration/Expansion) Winchester Ranger Talon
Bare Gel: 7.65”/.65”
Through Denim: 7.95”/.64”
Through Heavy Cloth: 7.85”/.64”
Through Wallboard: 15”/.36”
Through Plywood: 15.5”/.36”
Through Steel: 9.3”/.36”
Through Auto Glass: 4.5”/NA

9mm 147gr(990fps): (Penetration/Expansion) Winchester Ranger Talon
Bare Gel: 13.9”/.65”
Through Denim: 14.5”/.66”
Through Heavy Cloth: 14”/.66”
Through Wallboard: 15”/.67”
Through Plywood: 14.8”/.62”
Through Steel: 17”/.45”
Through Auto Glass: 10.8”/.52”

......9mm beats .380 due to better overall characteristics such as bullet mass, sectional density, higher operating pressure, and significantly larger powder charge.

Sorry, no .44spl or .44mag data to share.


.40S&W 180gr(990fps): (Penetration/Expansion) Winchester Ranger Talon
Bare Gel: 13.8”/.68”
Through Denim: 14.3”/.70”
Through Heavy Cloth: 13.4”/.64”
Through Wallboard: 13.1”/.66”
Through Plywood: 15.1”/.64”
Through Steel: 17”/.52”
Through Auto Glass: 12”/.61”

10mm Norma 170gr(1350fps): (Penetration/Expansion) No credible FBI testing for full power 10mm loads presently. Norma load FBI tests from 1989. No demin test at that time.
Bare Gel: 16.4”/.58”
Through Heavy Cloth: 17.8”/.52”
Through Wallboard: 17.2”/.54”
Through Plywood: 16.5”/.57”
Through Steel: 17.9”/.48”
Through Auto Glass: 12.3”/.55”

Yes, I know there is about a 15 year technology gap between these .40S&W and 10mm loads. However, the reduced power 180gr load of 1989 wasn't all that different.

10mm 180gr(980fps): (Penetration/Expansion) 1989 FBI load Sierra JHP
Bare Gel: 13.6”/.59”
Through Heavy Cloth: 15.4”/.56”
Through Wallboard: 16.1”/.55”
Through Plywood: 14.3”/.57”
Through Steel: 15.3”/.50”
Through Auto Glass: 12.1”/.52”

The Sierra JHP of that day were more reliable expanders as well.

[Low Drag]

Obviously you did not take the time to read my posts and understand my reasoning backed up by credible sources. I advise you to do more than browse the internet for snipits of information and read books and journals by Dr. Martin Fackler, Shawn Dodson, Duncan MacPherson, and Urey Patrick.

Thanks but.........

I'll spend my time focused on the software. I'll take my chances that I don't have the gee whiz bang bestest uber kill load in my carry gun. (whatever gun it happens to be on a given day)