Limited Ammo Options

[BigT]

In South Africa at the moment our carry ammo options are rather limted at the moment and I was hoping for some advice or some direction to reliable tests. Nothing on the list of recommended loads appears to be available at the moment. There are all sorts of rumours of what is coming in the near future but experience has taught me to believe it when I see it. About the only factory jhp available now seems to be the Winchester 115gr Silvertip and I think I would rather be inclined to carry ball.
Current options seem to be : reloading 124gr XTPs the old Cor Bon version of which seemed to perform alright in the FBI test published on Firearms Tactical. I know most people generally recommend against the use of reloads for Self Defence in the US but our options do limit us.
Next option would be a bullet that I understand was briefly available in the US as the NGA Sentry. This in 9mm is a 60 or 85 gr solid copper full wadcutter. It has a post in the centre of the meplat and a small rim around the edge both I believe there to keep the plastic nose cap needed for feeding in place. It seems the rim may offer a small amount of expansion but I undersand that the bullet is designed to work mainly on the sharp wadcutter profile.
The only importer that seems to be willing to bring in special orders is the Magtech agent. They load a 147gr jhp that may not perform particularly well through barriers but I assume should offer sufficient penetration.
I would really appreciate any advice while we wait for the next batch of ammo on the recommended list arrives.

[BuckskinJoe]

In South Africa at the moment our carry ammo options are rather limted at the moment and I was hoping for some advice or some direction to reliable tests. Nothing on the list of recommended loads appears to be available at the moment. There are all sorts of rumours of what is coming in the near future but experience has taught me to believe it when I see it. About the only factory jhp available now seems to be the Winchester 115gr Silvertip and I think I would rather be inclined to carry ball.
Current options seem to be : reloading 124gr XTPs the old Cor Bon version of which seemed to perform alright in the FBI test published on Firearms Tactical. I know most people generally recommend against the use of reloads for Self Defence in the US but our options do limit us.
Next option would be a bullet that I understand was briefly available in the US as the NGA Sentry. This in 9mm is a 60 or 85 gr solid copper full wadcutter. It has a post in the centre of the meplat and a small rim around the edge both I believe there to keep the plastic nose cap needed for feeding in place. It seems the rim may offer a small amount of expansion but I undersand that the bullet is designed to work mainly on the sharp wadcutter profile.
The only importer that seems to be willing to bring in special orders is the Magtech agent. They load a 147gr jhp that may not perform particularly well through barriers but I assume should offer sufficient penetration.
I would really appreciate any advice while we wait for the next batch of ammo on the recommended list arrives.

Wow, that is enlightening to me that ammunition availability is so extremely limited in SA! I am no termianl ballistics expert, but it seems, in general, that the heavier bullets in a particular caliber (9mm, .40, .45) tend to outperform lighter ones; therefore I would avoid light bullets, absent good data on terminal performance.

I have been reloading for about 30 years, am very meticulous, and almost never have problems with my reloads. Were I in your situation, I would be highly tempted to acquire the best bullets I could and load them myself, but that's just me. Are you able to buy reloading components (bullets, specifically) from the United States?

Wish I could be of more help.

Perhaps Doc will weigh in on this.

[losbronces]

I was told that reloads for personal defense are not recommended in the U.S. because factory loaded defense rounds have flash suppresents that aren't available to reloaders (thus producing less muzzle flash which is an advantage in a night-time action) and that if you are involved in a defensive shooting it is easier for follow-up ballistics tests to be done. I received this information first-hand from a county sheriff who has been involved with defensive shootings and the aftermath.

I think that careful reloads, including proper crimping, will be just as effective in a defensive situation except there will be more muzzle flash.

[tpd223]

I had a chance to shoot a couple of boxes of the sentry ammo, was marketed as "New Generation" when I bought it.

Interesting idea, seemed to me like it might be a decent load.


The real issue with reloads is going to court afterwards, which may not be an issue for you since you aren't in the US.

[Marcus L.]

BigT,

If you decided to go with FMJ, go with a 147gr loads. Most 147gr FMJ loads have a flat point which is superior to round nosed projectiles as it crushes and cuts more tissues as it passes. Round nosed projectiles, particularly the 9mm which has a very acute nose, create smaller wound channels because they push a good amount of tissue aside instead of crushing it.

I wouldn't use the full wadcutter loads that you mentioned due to reliability concerns. Full wadcutters have never really been that reliable in auto pistols and you may have some functioning problems during the stress of a shootout. Then of course, those super light weight projectiles will have penetration problems in both tissue and barriers such as windshields and housing materials. I'm not sure what else this South African company offers, but if they offer a standard 124gr+P JHP, that would be the load to go with.

The Magtech ammunition should be "okay" given your options. It certainly won't be as good as using Speer Gold Dots or the other more advanced ammuntion.......but you use what you've got. Magtech makes 147gr JHP which is what I would choose to use. I would prefer to use a 124gr+P JHP as cheaper JHP designs seem to do better with their grain weight and increased velocity, but Magtech doesn't make one. They also make a 115gr JHP, but given the terminal effects history of 115gr JHPs I would not consider using one for self defense. So, I would go with your 124gr XTP reloads(make sure your muzzle velocity is over 1150fps), the Magtech 147gr JHP, or the Magtech 147gr FMJ(flat nose).......but the Magtech 147gr JHP would "probably" be your best option.

[TiroFijo]

Marcus, does the normal FP FMJ profile of auto calibers (slightly rounded in the corners) really increase the "cutting + crushing" effect to a significant degree? I thought you needed a much sharper profile to gain anything vs a rounded point.

What about the tumbling effect of normal 9 mm FMJ due to the somewhat pointed ogive, woulnd't it compensate for the increased crushing effect of the FP?

[Marcus L.]

TiroFijo,

The 9mm FMJ loads that do tumble such as the 124gr FMJRN, often have a very delayed tumble which often does not occur until it has penetrated 9"(23cm) in tissue before it makes a tumble.

The average healthy human torso is only 8" from front to back, so that tumble won't really do a whole lot of good unless you get a flank shot. This has been an observation on the battlefield in which flank hits with the 9mm seem to make a larger exit hole than entrance hole......but you don't really get that effect in a frontal shot very often. A JHP often reaches full expansion after 2" of tissue penetration, and in order to have the most devistating effect on vitals you will need to reach maximum destructive effects at the 4" penetration mark in a frontal shot.

The 147gr flat point isn't as effective as a semi wadcutter because its edges are more rounded, but the flat leading surface does indeed help to create a larger crush cavity than a standard round nose. There is also considerable more cavitation or wake in the bullet path which helps to tear those tissues more effectively instead of just pushing them aside like a round nosed bullet does. The more unaerodynamic the projectile, the more effective it is in crushing and tearing tissue. I've experienced a clear difference between semi wadcutters and round nosed .44mag loads on boars. The semi wadcutter seems to cause significantly more bleed out, the entrance and exit hole is larger, and the incapacitation of the boar "seems" to be more rapid. Then again, I'm not going to assume that it is superior based on incapacitation time due to the great number of variables that effect incapacitation speed.

A good test you can perform to understand how much better a flat point crushes material in its flight path is this. Get a pine 2x4 board, a hammer, and 2 sharp nails. Use the hammer to slighly flatten the point of 1 of the nails so that it resembles a semi wadcutter. Hammer the sharp nail into the 2x4 about 2" from the end.....the board will split because the nail pushed the wood out of the way. Now hammer the semi wadcutter nail into the 2x4 about 2" from the end......the board will not split because the wood in the path of the nail was crushed more than it was pushed aside.

[tpd223]

"I wouldn't use the full wadcutter loads that you mentioned due to reliability concerns. Full wadcutters have never really been that reliable in auto pistols and you may have some functioning problems during the stress of a shootout."


Bad info. This ammo has a plastic nose cap that gives it a RN profile, very feed reliable in my experience with the 400 rounds I fired through various S&W 9mms.

Being a solid copper wadcutter I think it would penetrate well.

As an aside, Jim Cirillo thought this ammo looked very promising when I showed it to him during a class he was teaching at a range near here.

My only question would be the general QC of the factory making this ammo.

[TiroFijo]

Thanks for the reply, Marcus

What about the RN FMJ bullets that have a more blunt nose profile, like the 45 ACP and 380 ACP? Do the FP FMJ bullets in this caliber still offer any advantage?

I remember Jeff Cooper was a fan of the Hornady 230 gr FP FMJ @ 880 fps, but this was probably based on "feeling" rather than scientific tests.

A few years ago some US Army SF units used a 185 gr FP FMJ +P load (about 1140 fps?), is this load still in use today? Does it offer any advantage over the typical 230 gr RN FMJ @ 830-850 fps?

What do you think of the 115 gr Win silvertip (or any simple, lightweight JHP design) for civilian carry? I know it is a dated design, the penetration is not ideal, nor the behaviour after intermediate barriers, but is the 147 FP FMJ really superior to it for most uses? SA is a warm country where people don't wear heavy clothes most of the time, walls are generally made of brick or concrete masonry (not drywall), and most civilian shooting is not going to involve shooting through cars and windshields.

[TiroFijo]

Hoe gaan dit, BigT? I studied in Pretoria in '91-'92, and I remember the ammo option were limited at times, funny for a nation of dedicated and knowledgeable shooters like SA.

I see PMP offers a 115 gr JHP load:

http://www.pmp.co.za/prod04.htm#hgcsepc

maybe some aficionado at SA have tested it in gel, or perhaps the SAP have done some tests if you have a contact, but this is an unsophisticated design that won't perform like late generation JHPs that are available now in USA.