Limited Ammo Options

[Marcus L.]

TiroFijo,

My bad about the wadcutter profile on that particular load. I haven't seen any photos of it. However, if it uses a plastic RN cap, it may not shed that cap reliably and it would behave very similar to a RN projectile. Against human targets not protected by barriers, it would likely do just fine when it comes to penetration. However, against commonly encountered barriers such as car windshields the only loads that reliably penetrate such barriers are those with higher mass and higher sectional density. A .355" copper projectile weighing 60-85gr would lose a considerable amount of its momentum and kinetic energy after impacting the laminated glass construction. Duncan MacPherson did some tests with milled projectiles in copper and steel and the results were the same.

The Winchester 115gr ST is the load that started the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop. It is the load that Jerry Dove fired into Michael Platt which did not penetrate deeply enough to reach his vitals through light clothing. It has never with any degree of reliability been able to reach 12" of penetration in bare gel, let alone through commonly encountered barriers. Lets not forget this great piece of wisdom which has remained true in the last 20 years:

"Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet." -Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

.......stay away from the 115gr Silver Tip.

With regard to the more blunted RN bullet designs like the .45acp or 9mm Markov, yes they are "slightly" more effective. Their nose is is less acute taper which will cause more crushing in the bullet's path.....however, the difference is small.

I'm not sure on the current military .45acp load. The 185gr FMJ load will do better against hard targets such as sheet steel, but it won't do as well against windshields as the 230gr load. Picking a light or heavy load aways is a compromise. However, the FBI protocol tests include commonly encountered barriers.....barriers which you will likely encounter anywhere in the world. In those tests, the heavier bullet weights always perform better.

[Beat Trash]

BigT,

I have no experience with the loads you mention. But I might be able to offer some advice.

I work for a Department of around 1,200 officers. Our issued ammuniton is Winchester's 147gr JHP. This is the original 147gr loading by this company. Very low tech by today's standards. But this loading is, I assume, similar to the 147 gr loading you can obtain by MagTEch.

I would definitely prefer to be issued something else, and I carry different ammunition while off duty, in my own guns (Winchester's Ranger-T 147gr loading).

One of the main reasons we can't convince our administration to switch ammo is this simple argument. In every Officer involved shooting our agency has had, the round either worked, or the issue was shot placement. (The real reason is the administration doesn't want to switch, is due to our city counsel bitching about COP's wanting "more lethal" ammunition). The last OIS involved a close friend of mine trading shots with an individual from either end of his vehicle. The suspect went down with a shot to the leg, followed by a shot that entered next to the rectum, and traveled upward through the intestines, to be found just below the lung. The guy lived, though stopped shooting. Even though this officer is one of my closest frineds, the issue here was shot placement.

While I am not trying to say this type of ammunition is great, by today's standards, it's far from it. I am saying it beats a sharp stick in the eye. In your situation, I'd try to obtain some of the 147 gr MagTec rounds. Provided they are reliable, I'd prefer them to FMJ ball ammo.

I'd rather have people who train and practice, utilizing good shot placement and good tactics, loaded with 124gr FMJ ball ammo work next to me than people carrying the latest ammunition available in the United States, but who's shot placement and tactics suck...

But then, I'll be the first to admit I'm no expert, just a beat cop....

[BigT]

Thanks for the responses chaps I appreciate it. To give a bit more info. The ammo situation here hasnt always been this bad and there are rumours of decent stuff becoming available again but I will beleive that when I see it. Pricing could prove problematic when it does arrive though hence my exploring other avenues.
Strangely decent 40 and 45 ammo is a bit easier to find but at the moment I wish to go back to 9x19 as I shoot my Glock 17 better than my 23 and the nature of the threat profile here makes a hike in capacity preferable.
with regards to reloads that is unlikely to be the issue here that it is over there so legal problems with there use are not really an issue for me. In fact if I were to go the Sentry route I would reload them myself as I have seen issues with the factories QC. Marcus makes a good point though about barrier performance which I didnt consider. I guessed that their construction and design would allow sufficient penetration but I get the point about hard targets. Barrier performance is an issue for me as a lot of shootings here are in and around cars.
The choices as far as ball go would pretty much be 115gr stuff I dont remember ever seeing any 147 gr FMJs here. I would rather not go this route but would prefer it to any of the 115gr JHPs I see available.
The XTP bullets are readily available which is an appeal. The 147gr Magtechs arent currently available but the agents are said to be willing to special order for us so a group of us could get together and arrange a bulk buy. If anyone is aware of another Magtech load which would be a better choice please let me know.I have considered First Defence but in less scientific water test results I have found they look to penetrate a little bit on the shallow side.
unfortunately the SAPS are limited to ball so it is unlikely that they would have tested the PMP load.
sorry for the long post an once again Dankie Manne!