What can a rifle class do for me?

[SoDak]

For the past few weeks I've noticed this flyer that Corbon is getting John Farnam to hold an Urban Rifle Course in Sturgis SD this summer. I'm tempted to attend it since I wouldn't mind learning how to use my rifle more effectively and since this class is far closer(two hour drive for me) than any other rifle classes have been. I'm having troubles though justifying the $545 course fee plus the cost for at least 650 rounds of 5.56, when I would like to just buy more ammo. I'm sure the training would be nice, but I'm not sure how useful it would be for me considering where I live and what I do, but it is very close so I wouldn't spend too much time traveling or wasting gas. Can you guys help explain to me whether or not this course would be worth attending.

All I can find out about the course is from this site, http://defense-training.com/courses/rifle.html, although I might try to stop by Corbon and talk to them on Friday if I have time.

[rob_s]

I can't speak to the event, venue, or instructor, but....

3-day firearms training classes are my vacations. I almost always go to a facility that's about 3 hours away, stay 3-4 nights, and get away. Even if I go and thoroughly dislike the class, I have always learned something and ALWAYS enjoyed myself. Even with a "bad" class I've never regretted going. Spending 3 days hanging around with like-minded folks, shooting, and always improving is never a bad thing IMHO.

With that said, it appears that this class is two days for $550? That, IMHO, is on the extremely high side. The most expensive classes I know of average $200/day.

[Sam]

With that said, it appears that this class is two days for $550? That, IMHO, is on the extremely high side. The most expensive classes I know of average $200/day.

That price is in line for John Farnam's classes, pistol or long gun. I've never taken his classes but have heard tons of things from his former students and disciples.

[John_Wayne777]

Can you guys help explain to me whether or not this course would be worth attending.

I can't speak to this particular class or this particular instructor as I've never trained with this instructor....

I can, however, speak more to the point of training in general. Believe it or not the sentiment you expressed is quite common. Just a few months ago on another site someone asked me if they should spend X dollars on a new railed Sig P220 or the same X dollars on the tuition for a training course. "The class is 3 days, but the Sig would be something I could have forever!"

This is the question I asked him:

If you knew that in two weeks you'd be involved in a gunfight, what would you rather do in preparation: Buy a new gun/more ammo/etc or get training from a competent professional?

Formal training is certainly expensive...Lord knows I've dropped a lot of money on it over the years. With ammo prices these days it's worse than ever. Still, I've never regretted a penny of what I've spent on training and I'm constantly on the lookout to do more of it.

In formal training you learn everything you've been doing wrong without even knowing it. You learn lessons about mindset that can quite literally save your life. It's one of those figuring out that the Earth is round sorts of things. Everyone I know who has taken formal training has always signed up for more after their first class...and to a man they extol the virtue of participation in formal training. That's what I would call a "clue".

Having guns and ammo is great...but knowing how to use them is dramatically more important than buying more guns and ammo. (...and sadly much of what passes for police and LE training is inferior to what you can learn from competent instructors like Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, and others, so even that training is often not good enough) Most people (myself included) are not capable of teaching themselves how to fight with a firearm any more than they are able to teach themselves calculus.

My first training course was a handgun course at US Training Center. (Formerly Blackwater USA) I went into the first day thinking I knew how to shoot. By the end of day 2 my illusions of adequacy were shattered and I came to the understanding that I had just opened the door to a whole new world of information and skill that I had no clue existed prior to that moment. When I drove away from Moyock I was a 100% better shooter than I was when I first drove down Puddin' Ridge Road.

When it was over I had the irresistible urge to go back in time and kick my own ass for not signing up for classes sooner.

My advice would be this:

Take the class. Then when it's over honestly assess your experience. Training (especially the first formal training session you attend) won't always be "fun". As a matter of fact, it can be downright humbling. Assume your ego will take a pounding and put that aside. Show up to the class with a positive attitude, safe gunhandling skills (something else formal training teaches very well) and the commitment to listen 10 times as much as you talk, and odds are that you'll learn a bunch and you may even start to have a good time.

[Business_Casual]

I've trained with DTI at Quantico.

John is a very good instructor who will improve your shooting and gun handling skills. He is a former Marine combat veteran and law enforcement officer with real time on the street. You will learn what is important and what is necessary - whether you apply that to a handgun, rifle or shotgun after the class is up to you.

You won't leave with a suite of drills to practice - based on what I was taught.

I can recommend him and I have trained with Blackwater, Vickers Tactical and Martial Gun.

I realize I have no credentials so hopefully some of the SMEs will read this and post regarding John.

M_P

[markm]

That is a damned steep tuition. But since you live in an area that doesn't offer a lot of alternative training options, you might have to bite the bullet.

Out here in the Phx area, we can get 2 day training for $99 through the community college... with really good instructors/guest instructors.

If you have no rifle training at all, I think you should get some for sure.

[RogerinTPA]

I echo what others have said. Having a weapon without training, you are mediocre at best. You need to develop your skills, which will transpose itself to other weapons you will handle. The price is steep so personally, I'd shop around and look at the training forum. You may even consider a few cheaper one or two day courses to develop confidence and save money, then go for the longer courses.

[SHIVAN]

Weapons manipulation under simulated "stress", exposes technique "errors" and offers corrective techniques that can make you faster to react, exposes gear weaknesses or improvement areas, and lastly camaraderie in the shooting community.

650rds with under the instruction of a solid instructor is probably equivalent to 1500rds, or more, of self-diagnosis and instruction. In fact, depending on your background, you may not EVER be able to duplicate the input that John would offer you in 2 days. No matter how many rounds, or years you went after it.

[rob_s]

650rds with under the instruction of a solid instructor is probably equivalent to 1500rds, or more, of self-diagnosis and instruction. In fact, depending on your background, you may not EVER be able to duplicate the input that John would offer you in 2 days. No matter how many rounds, or years you went after it.

EXCELLENT point(s).

I was SOing a state match one year, and I had a particularly belligerant shooter insisting that his single hole was actually two shots tell me "I've been shooting since before you were born!" as his only evidence that he was right and I was wrong. I replied with "wow, and in all that time you still haven't learned how to actually shoot, huh?"

[Blake]

Bottom line.....

If you want to use a rifle effectively, you MUST take formal training. No amount of self-taught BS can prepare you to effectively use your weapon in a no shit situation, unless you have some really high-speed buddies.

I learned a little bit during my Army training. Minuscule in comparison to what I have learned from taking courses with a guys like Vickers and others.

This should be a non-negotiable for people wanting to use their weapons in defensive situations.