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Thread: NFA Approval Criterion - Lawyer Scum Needed

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    FWIW- the store where I purchased my suppressor also used Quicken Willmaker to set up a trust for me, just as they have for many others and it was approved by BATFE. It's not rocket science so I guess my question is what's wrong with it?
    dbrowne1 is 100% correct in his analysis of what is wrong with your gun dealer practicing law.

    You have gotten away with what you did ... for now. The ATF examiner approved it and the hand of God has not smitten you, so all is well, right?

    Maybe, maybe not. There may very well never be any problems, but if there ever are ... if (for whatever reason) your trust is ever examined in a legal setting -- an accident involving your gun (or suppressor or DD or AOW or whatever NFA item is at issue here) -- a divorce -- a bankruptcy -- you die (I hate to be the one to tell you this, but someday you will) -- and there are significant problems with your trust, you can say adios to everything in the trust. It is the same reason you wear seatbelts and the same reason you don't use a POS gun as your primary defense weapon ... you may drive for years, even your whole life, and never be in an accident and so never need the seatbelt, and your POS gun may work 100% of the time when you fire it at the range, but if you aren't wearing your seatbelt when you need it, or if your POS gun malfunctions in the middle of a home invasion (or in the middle of a firefight in one of those unfriendly sandy places), what are you gonna do? The point in all of these situations is the same: by the time you find out that you have a problem, it is too late to do anything about it and you're screwed.

    It's the same with setting up the trust/corporation/LLC that owns your NFA playtoys.

    I know that if you're going to spend X-hundreds of dollars on gun stuff, you want something tangible you can hold in your hand ... a new optic, whatever. I understand that paying the same money to someone in return for 10 sheets of paper (especially when you think that you can get those 10 sheets of paper for $30) grates.

    Lawyers are widely perceived to be arrogant, money-grubbing assholes, and I know more than a few who are. But, who else can you trust (no pun intended) to set up an NFA gun trust and do it right? How many estates and trusts courses has your gun dealer taken? Or was he graduated from the I Don't Care What Anybody Says, I Know How to Do This School of Law?

    Tell ya what. Ask your gun dealer to explain the rule against perpetuities in writing (no fair researching it beforehand) and then you post that here. If the lawyers on this board (and I gather that there are a few) agree that he/she has explained it reasonably accurately, then maybe you don't need to worry about your trust. (Although dbrowne1's points remain valid.)

    (Full disclosure demands that I tell you that very few attorneys who do not actively practice estate and trust law really understand the RAP. Most lawyers forget it as soon as they take the bar exam ... if they really understood it even then.)

    I'm not trying to scold. You do what you want. It's your gun (can, DD, AOW, whatever) and your freedom ...

  2. #22
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    You'd be surprised at how economical it is - in comparison to what you spend on the NFA items themselves - to pay a lawyer to properly create an entity and do all the governance documents properly. Depending on where you live it will likely be a flat fee of $400 or so.

  3. #23
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    I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there. FWIW- I saw a trust that a friend of mine paid 600.00 dollars to have done so that he could make purchases and there was virtually no difference in the two other than slightly different verbiage due to that fact that his was in GA and mine in AZ. I highly doubt that anyone is going to scrutinize my paperwork in the event of a shooting. The tax stamp yes, the trust no. That's just my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbrowne1 View Post
    There are a lot of things wrong with that:

    1. The dealer is probably engaging in the unauthorized practice of law by preparing trust documents for another person.

    2. Trusts are a picky and more complicated beast than LLCs. Do you know what the rule against perpetuities is, and how it applies in the trust realm? Does Quicken take into account your particular circumstances and desires and does it anticipate issues down the road?

    3. Just because an overworked (non-lawyer) NFA examiner approves your form does not mean your trust couldn't have fatal flaws and possibly not even be a valid entity under your state's laws. Fast forward a couple years and your gun gets stolen or you use it in self-defense, and all of a sudden a whole bunch of lawyers in your home state are taking a real close look at that paperwork. Could cause you some problems.
    Last edited by Iraqgunz; 02-26-09 at 17:40.



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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there. ... I highly doubt that anyone is going to scrutinize my paperwork in the event of a shooting.
    Famous last words...

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by aful View Post
    It's not easy, its a shortcut. Why on earth would you take a shortcut when the mere possession of the gun can turn you into a felon if your paperwork isn't filled out correctly? Why would you do that? You wouldn't take a shortcut if you were building a rifle or handloading, would you? You would do it the right way the first time because screwing it up is potentially catastrophic. This is no different.

    You're risking your freedom to save some time and money. That's your call. But you need to think about what dbrowne1 said before putting your future on the line so cavalierly.
    i don't know what the ATF regulation says with regards to employees of a corporation using a NFA weapon. i do know that if you're the president, CEO, and majority share-holder of the corporation YOU WILL NOT BECOME A FELON FOR USING THE GUN. thats ****in stupid. you MIGHT get hassled until they clear it up, but i guarantee you're not even going to get hassled if your paperwork says the gun belongs to Beckerich Construction, Inc. and your name is Benjamin Beckerich. especially if you carry your registration with you, like i do.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    i don't know what the ATF regulation says with regards to employees of a corporation using a NFA weapon. i do know that if you're the president, CEO, and majority share-holder of the corporation YOU WILL NOT BECOME A FELON FOR USING THE GUN. thats ****in stupid. you MIGHT get hassled until they clear it up, but i guarantee you're not even going to get hassled if your paperwork says the gun belongs to Beckerich Construction, Inc. and your name is Benjamin Beckerich. especially if you carry your registration with you, like i do.
    Well I guess that's settled, then.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by aful View Post
    Well I guess that's settled, then.
    Verbal Judo? good defusion statement.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    i don't know what the ATF regulation says with regards to employees of a corporation using a NFA weapon. i do know that if you're the president, CEO, and majority share-holder of the corporation YOU WILL NOT BECOME A FELON FOR USING THE GUN. thats ****in stupid. you MIGHT get hassled until they clear it up, but i guarantee you're not even going to get hassled if your paperwork says the gun belongs to Beckerich Construction, Inc. and your name is Benjamin Beckerich. especially if you carry your registration with you, like i do.
    Ok, try this: I'm not trying to call you "****in stupid" and don't appreciate your comment. You may be less risk averse than I am. I don't generally recommend risk averseness when dealing with criminal penalties. YMMV.

    I'm glad you know this. I, however, do not know that and I would never guarantee it. If you have a basis for your knowledge, I would genuinely appreciate it if you would PM me with it. Good information is always welcome. If your knowledge is based on your own personal interpretation of the NFA, or something you read on the internet, you are welcome to it but I will do my own research.

    Do you know if someone would be ok in a different factual situation than the one you describe? Do you know what happens to a corporation in your state if you don't follow statutory requirements regarding taxes, filings, etc.? Does it unincorporate? What happens in your state if your homemade trust is faulty because it runs afoul of the RAP? What happens to you if the purported owner of the NFA firearm doesn't legally exist? Make no mistake, I am not an expert on the NFA and don't claim to be. I am probably less conversant in setting up legal entities than someone who has set up their own. I don't practice in those areas so I do not know the answers to the questions above.

    What I know is this: everything related to the law is more complicated than you think it is. If you do not have an expert's understanding of it you need someone to give you good advice. I take it you successfully run a construction company you set up yourself, that your company owns an NFA item, and that you have not run afoul of the law. That's pretty cool, and you have my congratulations. But does it qualify you to give legal advice on the internet?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    you MIGHT get hassled until they clear it up, but i guarantee you're not even going to get hassled if your paperwork says the gun belongs to Beckerich Construction, Inc. and your name is Benjamin Beckerich. especially if you carry your registration with you, like i do.
    And how would a LEO "know" that if you don't have the governance documents to show that Benjamin Beckerich is the CEO, President, etc. of that company, or that it isn't just a coincidence?

    What if you have a common last name (like mine), and the cop says "how do I know you you're even related to this company?"

    If you want to create an easy way to take a less than friendly ride downtown, go right ahead. Some people have better things to do with their time and make sure they have their shit lined up to avoid it.

  10. #30
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    to both of you: i guess it all just comes down to how paranoid, cautious, anxious, however you want to put it, you are.

    i'm just not worried about it. maybe you guys live in states where people don't generally have guns and your cops are jumpy- dunno. If you're in possession of the NFA weapon and in possession of a copy of your tax stamp form, you're in compliance with the NFA as I read it. it wouldn't be hard to simply get a bank card with both your name and the corporation name on it- i have about three in my wallet.

    its been my experience that every time someone has told me i needed a lawyer to set something up and that it was going to cost X amount of additional dollars they've been full of crap, and it irks me to hear people advocating making the NFA process even worse than it already is.

    my bad for calling you "****ing stupid," that was uncalled for.

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