Active shooter response w/ long guns

[CAPT KIRK]

While I am a huge proponent of a Patrol Rifle program (I am currently working on a Lesson Plan for an informal one for my Reserve Organization and have been pushing for mandatory AS training for everyone so much so I spent my own time and money getting my Patrol response to an Active Shooter certification from the NTOA many years ago) I would never train the whole organization to conduct AS response based on having a long gun present.

What I would do is ensure (if the "powers-that-be" ever see the light and let me conduct this training) that they know where a long gun would fall within the team at various situations. Just like when I was helping train my Army Reserve unit (who are now downrange - may God watch over them and keep them safe) in these types of tactics, we conducted all of it with rifles only.

As Beat Trash stated (above): "Train with the equipment you have, not with what you wished you had." Reality sucks and the reality is most of the members of M4C are probably better equipped to respond to AS scenarios than most LE Agencies. Any instructor who base their training on nice-to-have equipment are only doing their students a very huge dis-service. JM2CW.

Carlos,

Sounds like you and I are very much on the same page. I am trying to get some more comprehensive training available to our guys and would value your input. I am hoping to get "Patrol Rifle Instructor" and "Active Shooter" certified myself so I can offer more than just the few hours we get at "Use of Force" three times year.

Ill PM you my contact info.

[CarlosDJackal]

PM Replied to. Feel free to ping me whenever. I'd be honored to provide any suggestions or ideas. Stay safe!!

[NCPatrolAR]

I think you are missing the point, first of all his post read: "We are traind to do AS response with just handguns"

It does not say anything about policy against using long guns (which is a moot point to argue for or against unless you actually have a say in policy). I did not see a post stating that they could not use long guns (or did I miss it?). What would have been a lot more counterproductive is training Officers to respond to AS with tools that they WILL NOT have when an AS situation were to occur (God forbid).

While I am a huge proponent of a Patrol Rifle program (I am currently working on a Lesson Plan for an informal one for my Reserve Organization and have been pushing for mandatory AS training for everyone so much so I spent my own time and money getting my Patrol response to an Active Shooter certification from the NTOA many years ago) I would never train the whole organization to conduct AS response based on having a long gun present.

What I would do is ensure (if the "powers-that-be" ever see the light and let me conduct this training) that they know where a long gun would fall within the team at various situations. Just like when I was helping train my Army Reserve unit (who are now downrange - may God watch over them and keep them safe) in these types of tactics, we conducted all of it with rifles only.

As Beat Trash stated (above): "Train with the equipment you have, not with what you wished you had." Reality sucks and the reality is most of the members of M4C are probably better equipped to respond to AS scenarios than most LE Agencies. Any instructor who base their training on nice-to-have equipment are only doing their students a very huge dis-service. JM2CW.

To clarify.....we only train to use pistols since that is what every officer has. Most patrol cars have shotguns, but are only equiped with 5 rounds of buckshot. The use of slugs is prohibited and will get us days off and a lack of legal protection (should something go wrong while using them). We are also restricted to carrying only 3 mags for the pistol and extra ammo, will again, get us in trouble with the agency.

In 7 years, I havent known the issue of long gun use to even be mentioned during AS training here.

[John_Wayne777]

To clarify.....we only train to use pistols since that is what every officer has. Most patrol cars have shotguns, but are only equiped with 5 rounds of buckshot. The use of slugs is prohibited and will get us days off and a lack of legal protection (should something go wrong while using them). We are also restricted to carrying only 3 mags for the pistol and extra ammo, will again, get us in trouble with the agency.

...which is exactly the sort of insanity I'm talking about.

[Beat Trash]

To clarify.....we only train to use pistols since that is what every officer has. Most patrol cars have shotguns, but are only equiped with 5 rounds of buckshot. The use of slugs is prohibited and will get us days off and a lack of legal protection (should something go wrong while using them). We are also restricted to carrying only 3 mags for the pistol and extra ammo, will again, get us in trouble with the agency.

In 7 years, I havent known the issue of long gun use to even be mentioned during AS training here.

The "Active Shooter" program in my region is called "QUAD". Without going into the specifics on an open forum, it centers around deploying 2-3 shotguns loaded with OO buck. Since it was developed, the Patrol Rifle Program has been developed in various agencies in the region. AR's can be substituted for the shotguns. QUAD utilizes a minimum of 4 and a max of 6 officers.

If you're interested, PM me, and I'll give you a point of contact. Provide cred's and they can provide you with a lesson plan.

I would strongly suggest you get with your fellow officers, and with your union, if you have a FOP, and try to make some changes. A patrol Rifle program can be funded with Federal Grant money, if the grant is written up properly. My agency added something as simple as an Uncle Mikes shotgun shell carrier to the butt stock, there by adding an additional five rounds of OO buck per gun. There are enough critical incidents nation wide to justify a Patrol Rifle program. We used a shooting in Indy in 04 to justify a Patrol Rifle program in 05.

If you feel the equipment you have available is not enough, then work within the system to change it. Type the form to the chief. But hit it from the angle of limiting liability by adding this additional equipment.

Sometimes you might find it necessary to step outside the procedure manual. We issue 2 magazines per AR15. Four rifles per District. I am a relief Sergeant. I happen to carry a few extra magazines in my CDOP bag, in the trunk of my car. The mags are loaded with the issued ammunition. I'll take the administrative hit (Written Rep, might even be days off - would get them back through arbitration), but I'd rather my guy's be alive, by being able to hand out an extra mag per officer.

If you are limited to handguns, then practice distance shots, if you are training for an active shooter incident. While the handgun is not ideal for this, I'll say it again. Train with the equipment you have, not what you wish you had.

Remember, a good shooting is a good shooting. A bad shooting will always be a bad shooting. If you're dead, it's a moot point...

[RWK]

To clarify.....we only train to use pistols since that is what every officer has. Most patrol cars have shotguns, but are only equiped with 5 rounds of buckshot. The use of slugs is prohibited and will get us days off and a lack of legal protection (should something go wrong while using them). We are also restricted to carrying only 3 mags for the pistol and extra ammo, will again, get us in trouble with the agency.

In 7 years, I havent known the issue of long gun use to even be mentioned during AS training here.

Presuming that you're with the Highway Patrol -- I heard that your agency was getting some nice new rifles...?

[NCPatrolAR]

Presuming that you're with the Highway Patrol -- I heard that your agency was getting some nice new rifles...?

Nah, I'm not with SHP; Jeff is the NC SHP guy that posts on here. I work for a different agency that refuses to see the use of a rifle for patrol officers.

[pinkejon]

Not a LEO, but I thought this was an interesting discussion. Just a couple of thoughts and questions.

Aren't there really two AS scenarios, VT and Mumbia? They seem to be radically different problems. I can't imagine how you guys figure out which is which, except by contact.

Actually they may be looked at as differen, but They are both AS scenerios. AS scenerios don't always fit into a specific category. Each one is as different as any other scenerio LEO's deal with on any given day.

I agree with 021411. As an LEO and trained in AS by Strategos seconds are lives. You may enter by yourself, but its not recommended. Always use the one is none and two is one. If you are by yourself and you engage one person who is protecting you from the second shooter. At least One to engage and one to provide security. We never know how many shooters there are until the end and everything is cleared by one technique such as Hall Boss or by the SRT teams. You must always think there is more than one shooter.

That is not to say you can't enter. If the nearest unit is 5 or 10 minutes out you have to make that decision yourself.

As for a Civ heading into an AS scenerio, well I would think long and hard on going in. Remember the responding LEO's don't know you are a ccw holder trying to help. What they will see is an armed person in a killing field. Hopefully you will be able to identify yourself before something bad happens.

Usually its best to let LEO's do the entry. Besides its why we get paid the big bucks. LOL

[pinkejon]

Carlos,

Sounds like you and I are very much on the same page. I am trying to get some more comprehensive training available to our guys and would value your input. I am hoping to get "Patrol Rifle Instructor" and "Active Shooter" certified myself so I can offer more than just the few hours we get at "Use of Force" three times year.

Ill PM you my contact info.

Have you tried Strategos International? I'm not sure what type of training is available near you, but they have Patrol rifle and Patrol Rifle Instructor courses all over the U.S. as well as AS and AS Instructor classes. That is who did our AS course and it was great. We developed our own training based on their course. We talked our local Sheriff and our Chief to purchase airsoft rifles and handguns and use them for AS training in our schools in the city as well as the county.

Our Sheriffs Dept and the Dept I work for are fortunate in that all deputies and officers are issued a rifle with Eotech 512 holo sights.