Active shooter response w/ long guns

[madisonsfinest]

Our department has trained active shooter scenario's for years now, and I'm grateful! We have AR's in all of our squads, and every officer is trained to use them. I do have a problem with our current setup as officers are getting ar's in shared squads its impossible to have the rifle sighted in to everyone unless everyone gets there own.

[ST911]

We held a combined training event for the agencies in our local area. Among the attendees were agencies who used shotguns only, carbines only, some SMGs, and combinations thereof.

The attendees used only HGs, as no training weapons were available for long guns, and it was the easiest for everyone to assimilate to. Discussions followed on the merits of each.

Rifles/carbines were universally regarded as the optimal choice, except by those making policy in the shotgun agency, and by some excessively veteran officers who wouldn't learn new tricks.

Having someone SG equipped was advocated, to allow for breaching. Coordination of how it gets there is problematic. Train-up in breaching was problematic.

Having two long guns was discussed, but was also problematic. There were some who used breaching shotguns on bungee slings or mounted on their kit, but they were unlikely to be involved in the first entries during an AS event.

For one scenario, brining a second long gun was discussed to allow arming certain friendlies in a certain facility, or certain School Resource Officers who regularly went unarmed. SROs are typically under-armed, and that is an option as well.

I advocate the carbine as the primary fighting long gun. Shotguns are for breaching and LTL.

[CarlosDJackal]

...which is unfathomable to me. Even the local university PD managed to join the 20th century and bought rifles with red dots. (Granted their equipment choices sucked, but at least they got the concept...)

Expecting police officers to combat terrorists and malevolent narcissists with a sidearm is 9 kinds of messed up.

Not as unfathomable as you think when you take reality into account. Not all agencies are convinced that they should be equipped with Rifles and do not even own any. Some have them and keep them locked up. In fact, I've met quite a few (misinformed) Firearms Instructors who think that rifles have no place in a Police Cruiser since the Shotgun can "do it all".

Responding to an Active Shooter with just handgun is not as crazy as an idea as it might seem at first. If you can equip 100% of your agency with rifles, then by all means, train with and deploy those. But do not overlook the possibility that you may not have the opportunity to put your long guns into action (not all cruisers are equipped to have long guns in the front where you can get to them).

How many Motorcycle Officers have you ever seen riding around with a long gun? If all they train with in responding to AS are long guns, then how do you think will they do with just a handgun? Will they hesitate then? Training with handguns is training for the worse-case scenario which is also unfortunately, the most common scenario. All Officers have handguns but not everyone is issued or has access to long guns.

The other reality is while those of us who actually take the time to train and practice to use a Carbine or Rifle make up such a small percentage of the LE Community. Even most of the ones who are lucky enough to get issued one usually shoot it once a year (during qualification) and usually keep it locked up in the trunk of their cruisers. Other agencies only issue rifles to SWAT Officers and Shift Supervisors and not to the regular Patrol Officer.

As the US Army used to beat into me, "Train as you will Fight!!" If 95% of the Agency only has access to a handgun (realistically), why force them to train with long guns for such a high-threat mission as responding to an Active Shooter?

I really wish I can walk around with my AR. But can you imagine the public outcry and complaints that such an image would create? JM2CW.

ADDED: Remember the priorities of surviving a lethal encounter: Mindset, Tactics, Skill, and Equipment. Trying to convince a bunch of underpaid and overworked Civil Servants that they should charge into what could be a Lion's Den is hard enough. Trying to teach them the proper tactics AND the skill they need to make effective use of a long gun they are never going to get issued is just not as high a priority as most people think.

[Eric Kozowski]

If you have a rifle and a shotgun, take the rifle. If you only have a shotgun, make sure you have slugs. Have a "go bag" with extra loaded pistol and rifle magazines and extra slugs if you don't have a rifle. Throw in a GSW kit, too and maybe some chem lights, door wedges, etc. Above all else, don't hesitate. Move as quickly as possible to the sound of the gunfire and eliminate the threat as fast as possible - seconds count.

[Eric Kozowski]

How many Motorcycle Officers have you ever seen riding around with a long gun?

Many motor officers have long guns. MP5A3's are common and some agencies have found a way to get 10.5" AR's into the saddle bags, too.

[BAC]

Responding to an Active Shooter with just handgun is not as crazy as an idea as it might seem at first. If you can equip 100% of your agency with rifles, then by all means, train with and deploy those. But do not overlook the possibility that you may not have the opportunity to put your long guns into action (not all cruisers are equipped to have long guns in the front where you can get to them).

Also, it might not be possible to get back to the cruiser where the rifle is located...

Many motor officers have long guns. MP5A3's are common and some agencies have found a way to get 10.5" AR's into the saddle bags, too.

That is awesome.

"Don't worry, he doesn't have a... OH SHIT!"


-B

[CAPT KIRK]

We are traind to do AS response with just handguns

Pure insanity...... rifles are a must....... WHY?

Schools across our nation are large with open spaces. If you have a visual on an active shooter who is out of practical handgun range, then you must either engage him with a more capable weapon (rifle) or close the distance and use a handgun. Closing distance waists valuable time and further exposes you and others to the likelyhood of being shot in that time. Further more, if you have the ability to engage at longer ranges, your active shooter may not even know you are there when you nail him.

I am not just blowing smoke here.... I have multiple force on force training experiences in active shooter response. In every instance where I have been limited to a handgun, I have despite my best efforts and tactics been hit. When I was able to employ the rifle, I was never hit and often got the shooter without his realizing I was a threat. Additionally, add to this that the rifles we used for these training scenarios (airsoft) were no where near as capable as a REAL M4 rifle would be, but having even that extra 50 yards of range advantage made the difference.

Many will argue that it is harder to search rooms if you have a rifle. If something being hard deters them then they are in the wrong line of work. Problem is, if we are going to employ rifles then we must also train with them, an area where too many agencies fall very short.

Just my 5 cents..

[lonewolf21]

my agency doesnt allow the use of patrol rifles, our chief doesnt see the need for us to equip ourselves with modern weaponry. it will take an incident where someone gets hurt to open somebodys eyes. sad. but i take my rifle to work with me anyway. and my body armor. believe it or not ive actually got some critisism from fellow patrolmen about being equiped. its sickning to hear guys talk crap about carrying a rifle and a go bag w/med supplies. "ive got 46 round, if i cant do it with that, then i'll go home" thats an actual quote.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Not a LEO, but I thought this was an interesting discussion. Just a couple of thoughts and questions.

Aren't there really two AS scenarios, VT and Mumbia? They seem to be radically different problems. I can't imagine how you guys figure out which is which, except by contact.
Two long guns/shotgun for breaching- How about a pistol grip short shotgun for the breach that can be slung tight?
In a AS scenario, as a CCW holder, is there any orthodoxy on how not to get shot, especially if the AS is still active?

[021411]

Not a LEO, but I thought this was an interesting discussion. Just a couple of thoughts and questions.

Aren't there really two AS scenarios, VT and Mumbia? They seem to be radically different problems. I can't imagine how you guys figure out which is which, except by contact.
Two long guns/shotgun for breaching- How about a pistol grip short shotgun for the breach that can be slung tight?
In a AS scenario, as a CCW holder, is there any orthodoxy on how not to get shot, especially if the AS is still active?

You have to have at least a 2 man team to cover all angles. Running to the sound of gun fire as a citizen is crazy enough but the killing(s) has to stop. You are leaving yourself open if alone. I'm not saying don't do it but it's a HUGE risk you take.
As harsh as it sounds, I would stay back unless "trained". Let the pros deal with it but again, if the situation was still active, would you just sit there and do nothing? It's a choice only YOU can make if law enforcement isn't there yet. Just make sure you tell someone what you are wearing and what your intentions are and hope to God they relay that to dispatch. You don't want to be placed in the bad guy category.