NIGHTHAWK or KIMBER?

[ToddG]

• There is a huge difference between early Series I Kimbers and later models. The early Kimbers were well made, quality tested guns with a great feature set being sold at an unbelievable price. Then once the company made its name, it started cutting corners and raising prices. To this day, there are people whose opinion of Kimber is rooted in those original gun rag reviews of perfect inexpensive Kimber 1911's.
• M4C is the wrong place to tout a gun if you yourself realize it's not a good choice for the so-called "serious end user." Even the civilian hobbyists on M4C tend to run their guns hard because M4C is one of the few forums that seems to be populated by folks who appreciate the benefit of training & practice.
• No one denies there are new production Kimbers that run well. But Kimbers have demonstrated a higher tendency to failure than comparable brands. If you knew that 20% of all Kimbers failed right out of the box, would you buy one? Probably not ... even though four out of five owners would tell you their Kimbers were perfect.

The DPMS analogy is perfectly valid. Are there people who own DPMS guns that run well? Yes. Are there people who run DPMS guns hard without too much trouble? Yes. Are there a lot more people who have problems with DPMS guns run hard than with other more respected brands? Yes. Do serious shooters, instructors, and armorers recommend against DPMS? Yes.

There is an entire world of people out there who would be perfectly satisfied with a Kimber (and a DPMS). Those folks don't tend to ask for gear advice at M4C. Just sayin' ...

[Triton28]

No one denies there are new production Kimbers that run well. But Kimbers have demonstrated a higher tendency to failure than comparable brands. If you knew that 20% of all Kimbers failed right out of the box, would you buy one? Probably not ... even though four out of five owners would tell you their Kimbers were perfect.

You might be right. But you also might be wrong. At the risk of stiring up conspiracy theories, nobody here knows how many Kimbers fail out of the box. If Kimber makes 50,000+ pistols a year, even 5% failure rate would be 2,500+ pistols returned every year.

The DPMS analogy is perfectly valid. Are there people who own DPMS guns that run well? Yes. Are there people who run DPMS guns hard without too much trouble? Yes. Are there a lot more people who have problems with DPMS guns run hard than with other more respected brands? Yes. Do serious shooters, instructors, and armorers recommend against DPMS? Yes.

There is an entire world of people out there who would be perfectly satisfied with a Kimber (and a DPMS). Those folks don't tend to ask for gear advice at M4C. Just sayin' ...

Most people recognize that a Kimber is in a different class than a Wilson, Baer, EB, NH, etc. That much has been stated several times this thread. Most people also recognize that a DPMS is in a different class than Colt, LMT, DD, etc. The fact that "serious" shooters or instructors realize that very point should come as no surprise. Despite attempts by some, I don't think this thread (or the DPMS thread that Grant so graciously referenced) was ever about, "My Kimber/DPMS is just as good as your _____."

I'm getting the feeling that some people just want to have a pissing contest about how much they know or how hard they train. As always though, YMMV.

[G34Shooter]

I'm getting the feeling that some people just want to have a pissing contest about how much they know or how hard they train. As always though, YMMV.

I'm getting the feeling that you don't understand the concept of this M4C and that this is less catered to shooters that treat firearms and training as a hobby.

[G34Shooter]

You might be right. But you also might be wrong. At the risk of stiring up conspiracy theories, nobody here knows how many Kimbers fail out of the box. If Kimber makes 50,000+ pistols a year, even 5% failure rate would be 2,500+ pistols returned every year.


Most people recognize that a Kimber is in a different class than a Wilson, Baer, EB, NH, etc. That much has been stated several times this thread. Most people also recognize that a DPMS is in a different class than Colt, LMT, DD, etc. The fact that "serious" shooters or instructors realize that very point should come as no surprise. Despite attempts by some, I don't think this thread (or the DPMS thread that Grant so graciously referenced) was ever about, "My Kimber/DPMS is just as good as your _____."

I'm getting the feeling that some people just want to have a pissing contest about how much they know or how hard they train. As always though, YMMV.

I'm getting the feeling that you don't understand the concept of this M4C and that this is less catered to shooters that treat firearms and training as a hobby.

[Triton28]

I'm getting the feeling that you don't understand the concept of this M4C and that this is less catered to shooters that treat firearms and training as a hobby.

Catering to "serious" shooting has nothing to do with the words used or the tone of the advice given. Plenty of times over the last several months I have seen good advice given without the chest thumping.

[G34Shooter]

Catering to "serious" shooting has nothing to do with the words used or the tone of the advice given. Plenty of times over the last several months I have seen good advice given without the chest thumping.

I look at it as "Words of Wisdom" regardless of the fashion it is delivered, and IMO I have not seen any chest thumping... There are forums of a certain school that will go to the point of being insulting if you don't agree with them which would probably bother someone like you, then there are some of us who are thicker skinned than that. Don't take it personally if your preference in firearms is not well liked by some serious end users, instructors or industry professionals.

[Triton28]

I look at it as "Words of Wisdom" regardless of the fashion it is delivered, and IMO I have not seen any chest thumping... There are forums of a certain school that will go to the point of being insulting if you don't agree with them which would probably bother someone like you, then there are some of us who are thicker skinned than that. Don't take it personally if your preference in firearms is not well liked by some serious end users, instructors or industry professionals.

Words of wisdom is a good way to look at it.

Nighthawk vs kimber? thats like ferarri vs yugo....

I personally would not use a Kimber to hold my door open. YMMV.

Nothing in these two quotes is meant to impart wisdom. I've seen training/background/job status used to back up statements just like this all over the forum.

[ToddG]

At the risk of stiring up conspiracy theories, nobody here knows how many Kimbers fail out of the box. If Kimber makes 50,000+ pistols a year, even 5% failure rate would be 2,500+ pistols returned every year.

Certainly true. The point, which seems lost on those unwilling to hear it, is that Kimbers have a long-earned reputation for failing at a noticeably higher rate than comparably priced guns.

I'm getting the feeling that some people just want to have a pissing contest about how much they know or how hard they train. As always though, YMMV.

I don't even own a 1911 and honestly couldn't care less which one(s) you own. If you feel it's chest-thumping to relay experience to someone who is trying to decide on the purchase of an expensive piece of life-saving equipment, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Ed L.]

I got a Kimber Warrior that came from the factory unable to reliably feed several brands of factory hardball when using Wilson 7 round mags and CMC powermags. It would often have failures to feed and sometimes the slide would lock back with rounds still in the magazine. Even after 500 rounds fired it had not worn in.

After over $400 and 3 trips to two different gunsmith it still was not reliable and had a variety of wierd types of malfunctions like having the ambi safety loosen inside the gun and prevent the safety from being disengaged, as well as eject a case in the middle of the string of fire and fail to feed the next round. The last one happened about 3 magazines into a practice session after it had previously been cleaned with Remington Golden Saber ammo. Since I did not trust the gun, I dumped it.

The early Kimbers may have been good, but the later ones seem to have a higer incidence of problems.