Multiple hits (handgun and long gun) without incapacitation

**BuckskinJoe** · 03-16-09, 06:34

A student of mine supplied this to me:

http://catm.com/yabbfiles/Attachment...FBIAcademy.pdf

The real purpose of the above report by the FBI was to dispel disseminated errors about the shooting and ammunition used. However, the part that got my attention is the fact the subject was shot 17 times with a combination of .223 rifle and .40 handgun ammunition before he was "stopped," and the report seems to indicate the subject did not die before he was captured but that officers had to "fight" the assailant to handcuff him!

Is anyone familiar with this incident? I have searched the net for information without success.

Is there some repository for information on such shootings, where the subject is shot multiple times with seemingly no effect?

Sure would appreciate it.

**DRich** · 03-16-09, 12:34

When I was an active paramedic about 17yrs ago, we responded to call where an unarmed PCP junkie had attacked two officers during a traffic stop. He was pepper sprayed, beaten with an ASP, shot 11 times with a 9mm and 8 times with a .30 carbine...17 COM hits between the navel and top of the sternum, one hit in the left thigh...and was still fighting when we arrived ~5 minutes later. It took six of us to get him strapped to the gurney and we thought he was going to rip the truck apart. He eventually bled out in the ER. One of the cops lost an eye in the struggle.

Through some miracle, none of the bullets hit his spine or heart. His lungs, liver, spleen and kidneys were perforated by several shots, but the PCP kept him going until exsanguination finally caught up with him. Unfortunately, I don't have any details about the performance of the bullets in this case. I saw the x-rays in the ER, but it was hard for me to tell which bullets related to which external wounds.

**larry0071** · 03-16-09, 12:39

Hence why when you decide it is time for "deadly force", you apply the time tested 2 to the chest, 1 to the head method of force application.

Shooting 30 and 40 rounds into a person and not getting the desired effect? You SUCK at shooting!

Brains on the ground behind the perp normally ALWAYS will slow his advance.

**DRich** · 03-16-09, 12:45

Originally Posted by larry0071

Shooting 30 and 40 rounds into a person and not getting the desired effect? You SUCK at shooting!

Brains on the ground behind the perp normally ALWAYS will slow his advance.

When locked in a struggle with an opponent, you rarely get to take the "best" shot. You simply take the "best shot available". Two the chest, one to the head works well in the movies, but is rarely possible in real life. The human head is a small target when it's not moving. Try to hit one at night, when it's trashing around, while you're amped up on adrenaline and fighting for your life...it ain't easy.

**larry0071** · 03-16-09, 12:49

He (the perp) took the time to reload a mag from a box containing rounds. He had the time and dexterity to stand/sit 20 feet from the officers and reload a mag... and they could not get 3 seconds for a head shot? I'm sure that there is more to the story, but I know a couple officers that could "aquire a target" and make the shot in a second or 2. I would not face off with a couple of my pal's that are officers and shooting enthusiasts...... because a second is all they would need to make your day go real bad.

**DocGKR** · 03-16-09, 15:27

I am very familiar with the incident you are discussing. It is not at all an uncommon result in actual shooting incidents against motivated opponents. Why is this event from 2006 still an issue? Following the PA shooting incident, the initial poorly done autopsy report by a doctor who was very inexperienced with GSW trauma created quite a controversy when it was discussed on NTOA; numerous emails went flying about and there was much outcry. The PD asked the FBI to help with the analysis. They produced a briefing that was sent to the PD; unfortunately, a bastardized, incomplete, unauthorized version of this report found its way onto the internet (as noted in the link) and has gone on to create even more controversy by folks who do not know what they are looking at. This BS keeps cropping up, no matter how many times we have publicly attempted to set the record straight--I personally have posted about this at TF, LF, M4C, and 10-8. Both the .40 and .223 rounds performed as expected based on lab testing--remember, there is a reason we always state that fragile .223 varmint and OTM projectiles are NOT a good choice for LE patrol use where vehicles and other intermediate barriers are present... See: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881 and https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

**BuckskinJoe** · 03-16-09, 16:18

Originally Posted by DocGKR

I am very familiar with the incident you are discussing. It is not at all an uncommon result in actual shooting incidents against motivated opponents. Why is this event from 2006 still an issue? Following the PA shooting incident, the initial poorly done autopsy report by a doctor who was very inexperienced with GSW trauma created quite a controversy when it was discussed on NTOA; numerous emails went flying about and there was much outcry. The PD asked the FBI to help with the analysis. They produced a briefing that was sent to the PD; unfortunately, a bastardized, incomplete, unauthorized version of this report found its way onto the internet (as noted in the link) and has gone on to create even more controversy by folks who do not know what they are looking at. This BS keeps cropping up, no matter how many times we have publicly attempted to set the record straight--I personally have posted about this at TF, LF, M4C, and 10-8. Both the .40 and .223 rounds performed as expected based on lab testing--remember, there is a reason we always state that fragile .223 varmint and OTM projectiles are NOT a good choice for LE patrol use where vehicles and other intermediate barriers are present... See: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881 and https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

My apologies for causing apparent offense by trying to find out more about a specific OIS and others like it. I did not know about it until recently. Please accept my apology, Doc, for causing such a stir. I have read the threads you posted, along with all others, but consider this matter dropped. I wish I had never asked the question. Will never ask another!

**Zhukov** · 03-16-09, 17:09

Originally Posted by DocGKR

They produced a briefing that was sent to the PD; unfortunately, a bastardized, incomplete, unauthorized version of this report found its way onto the internet (as noted in the link) and has gone on to create even more controversy by folks who do not know what they are looking at.

I'm assuming that the original/complete article is not available to the general public?

**Zhukov** · 03-16-09, 17:14

Originally Posted by larry0071

He (the perp) took the time to reload a mag from a box containing rounds. He had the time and dexterity to stand/sit 20 feet from the officers and reload a mag... and they could not get 3 seconds for a head shot? I'm sure that there is more to the story, but I know a couple officers that could "aquire a target" and make the shot in a second or 2. I would not face off with a couple of my pal's that are officers and shooting enthusiasts...... because a second is all they would need to make your day go real bad.

Have you been in a gun fight where your life was on the line?