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Thread: $1200 Max Home Protection

  1. #31
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    Two sheets of sheetrock and a tool box, will stop an AP round at muzzle velocity.

    The studies have been done, by the FBI no less, 5.56 in general will penetrate less building material then most service caliber handguns. I believe LE departments can request the info.

    In my use of force training, we are taught to shoot to stop the action, that is all. Unfortunately that usually means kill, especially with a well trained, motivated adversary. Or some crackhead lookin for a fix...

    I did not see where anyone advocated shooting anyone in the back, only taking the fight where it needs to go. HD can encompass many things to include civil unrest as in the aftermath of the King decision and Katrina.

    I know the OP was looking for an AR, but depending on how much that 1200 is, what you already have, etc.
    I would not be opposed to a G19 about 10 mags, holster, mag pouch, belt, a lot of ammo, and a LAV pistol class.

    Bob

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAUSER202 View Post
    I think it depends on the internal demensions of the home/appartment. A hand gun is a defensive weapon that could be kept in a small under bed safe or in a night stand. A rifle is an offencive weapon.
    There are some instances where corners are tight and a pistol would come into its own.

    Since the bad guy is MY HOME, I am on the offensive!

    In all honesty, if someone breaks into your home, you should be in your safe room (bedroom), dialing 911, blocking the door and pointing the AR at the door (no need to be searching the house for them).

    My home is very small including the size of the rooms ( my bed room is 9x9 plus furishings) . Imo a hand gun would be a lot easier to grab and confront an intruder that breaks in while I am a sleep especially if he/they got to my bed room before I heard them. I just dont see a lot of room to manuver with a rifle, plus with a hand gun I have a free hand if I choose for a light off to the side or for the phone. Just my HUMBLE opinion.
    You can keep a HG right next to you. You can also keep a long gun under the bed or in the closet. You use the HG to get to the long gun.



    C4

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by panzerr View Post
    Well, we're not talking about swat here. We're talking about home defense. If you are worried about taking the fight outside your house and into the streets you had better worry about some jail time as well. If the intruder is outside your house, getting the heck out of dodge, why would you want to gun him down in the street? This is not a scenario from the movies, this could be the real deal.
    Interesting. Can you tell me what the difference is with a SWAT team killing a guy in your home and you doing it???

    If the guy has a gun on my property and is shooting at me, I can defensd myself (always better to be judged by 12). If the person is leaving (and not shooting at me), I will not engage him.

    I have no idea why you assumed I would have a gun fight in the street. I made no mention of it.

    Over-penetration is a liability.
    Sure is! This is why you should stay away from pistol ammo and a lot of shotgun ammo!

    If you are like the majority of Americans and live in an urban area and decide it is a good idea to use an M4 inside your house you are a fool. You will put your family and everyone near your house in danger because you will shoot through your walls. Half an inch of sheetrock, a little insulation and 7/16" plywood will not stop a high velocity round.
    Negative. Do some ballistics reading (we have a forum just for that on here). You are VERY un-educated about what high velocity bullets (like the .223) do when they hit a wall.

    Aside from that, it is much easier to retain control of a pistol than an AR.
    You can keep your pistol tucked to your side with your hand out to fend off an intruder, while still being able to pump rounds into his gut if need be. Inside close quarters, when it is just you to defend yourself with no back-up it would be much easier for a perp to hide around a corner, wait for that muzzle to come around and get you tangle****ed up with your weapon. This is an easy scenario to imagine, especially if the perp has had any martial arts training that works on close-in fighting, like kenpo.
    I have really no idea why you think any of this. Have you ever been through any CQB shooting schools???

    I have had quite a bit. The first thing I realized when I went through my first one is to NEVER go looking through your house for a bad guy! This is a LAST resort kind of thing. Get your ass in your safe room, block the door and call 911 and point weapon at the door.

    And I am interested in wounding and incompacitation. Anyone that would say they want to kill is a sociopath or a fool. Would you want to live with that on your conscious? Not an easy thing to do, no matter how justified.

    Bird shot is for birds. Do you want to get shot with it? It would ruin your day.
    No problems killing a bad guy. I am putting an end to them EVER hurting someone else again.

    Sure. You shoot me with bird shot and I will shoot you with a 75gr TAP. Want to bet who loses that fight??


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 03-21-09 at 17:23.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    You're pullin' our leg, right?
    I am afraid he is not. He seems to forget that the people MOST concerned about killing innocent people (and litigation) are Police SWAT teams. This is why they use AR's chambered in .223.



    C4

  5. #35
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    Since people are having such are hard time understanding what a .223 does (and how much it penetrates), here are some pics.

    Take careful note that the parts of the .223 bullet that are at the 13" inch mark are fragmented! This means that the bullet is FAR less likely to kill anyone (compared to a full/complete bullet out of a handgun).


    C4





  6. #36
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    As you so eloquently pointed out, I'm completely uneducated. You win this pissing match. I'm not going to argue my points with someone that "has been to a class."
    a former meatpuppet.

    http://sixty-six.org

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by panzerr View Post
    As you so eloquently pointed out, I'm completely uneducated. You win this pissing match. I'm not going to argue my points with someone that "has been to a class."
    I've done my share of projectile recovery & shooting reconstruction at real-world shootings. This includes dozens of fatal/non-fatal shootings at residential, multi-dwelling structures and motor vehicles involving pistol and rifle calibers. Grant is correct. Pistol caliber ammunition can (over)penetrate significantly further in human tissue and obstacles/barriers (plywood, 2X4s, drywall, doors, glass, sheetmetal, etc) compared to high velocity .223/556 caliber HP loads. Pistol caliber FMJ are notorious for pissing through multiple walls, and the HP cavity of pistol caliber HP projectiles can and often do get clogged with foreign material (drywall and wood fibers are extremely effective) which prevents them from expanding, causing overpenetration similar to FMJ loads. High velocity .223/556 HP ammunition consistently fragments upon contact with common barriers and within soft tissue. Even .223/556 FMJ and SP (not SS109 or steel jacketed ammo) consistently fragments at high velocities.

    I've seen it first-hand time after time in the real world. Feel free to PM me for my CV.
    Last edited by ballistic; 03-21-09 at 20:24.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by panzerr View Post
    As you so eloquently pointed out, I'm completely uneducated. You win this pissing match. I'm not going to argue my points with someone that "has been to a class."
    Oh, I have more than "A class."

    Please try & argue your pov. Myself & MANY others would love you try and tell us why birdshot or handgun ammo is better than the .223 (especially after the pics I posted).


    C4

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by panzerr View Post
    And I am interested in wounding and incompacitation. Anyone that would say they want to kill is a sociopath or a fool.
    If you are interested in wounding you shouldn't be using a gun. Everytime that you pull that trigger it should be center mass.

    You may want to invest in a non lethal weapon.

  10. #40
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    I'm not a shotgun guy. I don't have one, and I don't want one.

    For the OP, though, a shotgun is a good choice.

    I just got my little sister and her fiancé an 8-shot Mossberg 500 for $250. With DROS and sales tax, it was under $300 out the door.
    Even with a couple hundred rounds of buckshot, some accessories (sling, sights, shell carriers, etc.), and a case, the OP could be out the door for half his budget (or buy a Glock and several hundred rounds of ammo for it).

    On the other hand, as everybody has pointed out, it's just about impossible to set up a high-quality AR for $1,200.

    That's just my 2˘,

    Bimmer

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