Bad info that just won't go away

[HiggsBoson]

Wait just a minute!!! You mean to tell me 12 guage slugs won't pick a man up off his feet and throw him back 10 feet?????

I think Chuck Norris, Steven Seagal and Jean-Claude Van Damme would beg to differ.

Well... Chuck Norris once shot a man in the big toe with a shotgun slug and it hit him so hard he was the first man on the moon. You may have heard of him, his name was Neil Armstrong.

[tpd223]

One of the issues at hand would be that Rob Pincus was involved.

[Rob Pincus]

Hey guys.....

First, thanks for watching TBD.... this week was the last show of the season and the show has done very well. The feedback has been overwhelmingly positive. Next week, in fact, we'll be at BWTC taping firearms segments for a spin-off "TBD: Survival". The regular show goes into re-runs next week on Outdoor Channel.

As for the birdshot issue, this mis-understanding comes up on the almost internet every time an episode discussing drywall penetration airs..... and is perpetuated all too frequently, so I want to make a correction. What the segment did was show the viewers an empirical comparison between different types of typical rounds in regard to penetration of sections of drywall. In this case, it was Phil Strader and I doing the demo at USSA. One of the rounds used was birdshot. The birdshot (not surprisingly) showed less penetration than the slug, .223 or any of the pistol rounds. One of the observations made was that if avoiding penetration through walls is your primary concern for whatever reason, birdshot was the "best" choice.... obviously, the observations that neither of us would've wanted to be shot by the load of 12g birdshot inside of a room and that it would've "significantly effected" the ability of a bad guy to hurt someone were also made. The OP sorta makes it sound like I jumped on the screen and, quote, "Rob Pincus advocated birdshot for use in a defensive shotgun "... which was not the case. There are certainly plenty of times throughout the first season of TBD that I and the other hosts did advocate things, but this wasn't one of them.

As for Mr. Potterfield and his "knockdown power", Midway is the primary sponsor of the show and part of that sponsorship includes a 90 second spot in each show for Larry to offer whatever information he wants. It is not part of the content of the show and has been discussed at length here.

The segment was available online, but a contract issue with one of the cable companies forced us to pull them... at least temporarily.... if/when we get it back up, I'll be sure to post a link. Meanwhile, for those interested in seeing the clip in its entirety to put context on the issue, it will be re-run in two weeks on Wednesday on the Outdoor Channel.

-RJP

[RWK]

One of the observations made was that if avoiding penetration through walls is your primary concern for whatever reason, birdshot was the "best" choice.... obviously, the observations that neither of us would've wanted to be shot by the load of 12g birdshot inside of a room and that it would've "significantly effected" the ability of a bad guy to hurt someone were also made. The OP sorta makes it sound like I jumped on the screen and, quote, "Rob Pincus advocated birdshot for use in a defensive shotgun "... which was not the case. There are certainly plenty of times throughout the first season of TBD that I and the other hosts did advocate things, but this wasn't one of them.

Well, I don't recall any caveats regarding the use of birdshot being mentioned by either of you. When you laud the lack of drywall penetration, point out the "significant wound" [my words, not yours] produced on a mannequin, and make comments about how "neither of us would've wanted to be shot by the load of 12g birdshot inside of a room and that it would've "significantly effected [sic]" the ability of a bad guy to hurt someone", without providing any other context or caveats about the use of birdshot, it sure sounds like advocacy to me. While you say it wasn't your intent to advocate the use of birdshot, it sure came across that way. In all fairness, I'll try to catch a re-run and post the exact verbiage here. Regardless, perhaps it might have been more responsible/informative to mention that although birdshot may not penetrate drywall, it's also a poor choice for defensive use and that buckshot should be the choice of shot?

As for Mr. Potterfield and his "knockdown power", Midway is the primary sponsor of the show and part of that sponsorship includes a 90 second spot in each show for Larry to offer whatever information he wants. It is not part of the content of the show and has been discussed at length here.

You are judged also by the company you keep (and in this case, your sponsors). The producers of the show pass the show off as a source for good information. I say that the show has a responsibility to ensure that its content is solid. That includes the content of your sponsors. Taking the position that a sponsor can pay their money and then say whatever they want, even if it's stupid, is irresponsible and stupid in itself. A similarly ridiculous argument would be something along the lines of "we allow our sponsors to put out bad info because we balance it with good info".

Maybe someone needs to have a heart-to-heart with Larry about his "knockdown power" and get it nixed from any future shows. I understand the economics of producing a TV show so, I know the ramifications of alienating/losing sponsors and I don't say this lightly. But, stupid is stupid and if he would refuse to come around, I think you'd be better off without a show than with one that sends mixed signals because it does reflect on you.

[Rob Pincus]

Maybe someone needs to have a heart-to-heart with Larry about his "knockdown power" and get it nixed from any future shows. I understand the economics of producing a TV show so, I know the ramifications of alienating/losing sponsors and I don't say this lightly..

If you check out that thread I linked, you'll see that this has been done.... Those segments were added after the fact and we (Janich and I, at least) weren't aware that they were going to be included. Everyone on our side has offered to be involved in future such segments. While we don't expect everyone to agree with everything we put out, we do expect to be able to stand behind everything associated with the show and be able to explain it....
FWIW, I came to the conclusion/resolution that, if nothing else, Potterfield's opinions and personal performance provide a body of subjective comparisons that people can put as much weight as they want into. While his ability to pick up a gun off the table and shoot a pie plate has nothing to do with mine or yours.... someone who is truly new to to firearms does get some idea of how some radically different guns ( a GP100 and a Browning HP, for example) might perform relative to one another.

In all fairness, I'll try to catch a re-run and post the exact verbiage here

I appreciate that. The fact is that trying to cover a topic like this in any amount of thoroughness in 5-7 minutes is tough. The original content was almost 20 minutes long and lot gets lost in the editing process. As I've said, this segment always gets attention... I've been involved in 3 different productions of it and I think it gets better every time. As with everything else, presenting information in this format is an evolving process. Some of the comments in this thread will help us to make the next one better.


Thanks again for watching.

-RJP

[wrinkles]

Looks like all the folks at downrange.tv forum think Larry Potterfields chart is the best thing since sliced bread. They are taking it as gospel.

[User Name]

Rob Pincus advocated birdshot Of course he did. I've often wondered what he did before he became a firearms training guru. Though Clint Smith recently advocated using bird shot in an article not long ago. Then again I've never wanted to train with Pincus or Smith for that matter. For shotgun Awerbuck and Rob Haught are who I believe are masters of the scattergun. I know Awerbuck has nothing good to say about bird shot.

[Saginaw79]

I cant see running anything smaller than 00 for a bipedal target, unless its a bird man then maybe Bird Shot will be ok


Heres another one of mine-

WOLF ammo will rape your sister, break your extractor and melt in the chamber! etc LOL

[KellyTTE]

Rob Pincus advocated birdshot Of course he did. I've often wondered what he did before he became a firearms training guru.

Last I asked, he had been a cop for a while. Rob is pretty straightforward about his past and resume. So you'll excuse me if I'm not exactly swayed by the arguments or resume of an anonymous 'user name'.

[Carne Frio]

If you want a good demonstration of what various types of shotshell ammo
does to things, go to theboxotruth.com. It is results oriented. It is also fun.