Maps

[Bighead]

even in an EOTFWAWKI situation i imagine GPS will still work for quite some time. i'm not rocket scientist, but i imagine that most satelites maintain their own orbits. does GPS use standard orbit or geostationary satelites?

People rely on GPS too much. Give some a map, protractor and a compass and they vapor lock. I used to piss off young guys new to the team when I would not allow them to use a GPS for navigation until they proved to me they were proficient with the basic map and compass.

[Gentoo]

Maps and GPS are meant to be used in conjunction with each other, not as a replacement.

GPS is great. Maps are great.

But as much as I like my Garmin for helping me find a nearby place to eat or whatnot, a Delorme atlas and a Mapsco is invaluable for giving a good overview and planning long distance travels.

Everyone should know how to navigate with compass and topo map. It isn't exactly hard to do, hell I learned how when I was 12 years old in the scouts.

[Gutshot John]

GPS doesn't give a good a broad 3-D picture of an area and what youre going to travel. That said people often get too reliant on both, for instance once you consult your map at the beginning and you know where Y river is and that it intersects X point downstream, you don't need a map/gps to navigate there.

As for maps, and declination to account for creep over years is usually easier said then done for most people with terrain being the biggest variable. This is where experience in land navigation pays huge dividends. For the casual hiker, current maps can be had for free online. Print out new ones and throw away old ones.

If the route is going to be less direct with natural obstacles, hills, mountains, streams and creek as in the Allegheny Mountains the math becomes prohibitive for most people and they invariably forget to account for something along the way. Even for experienced people, this is where GPS saves a lot of time/hassle.

[bkb0000]

obviously you need land nav skills- but i'll tell you what, if i'm in an E&E situation and my GPS works, i'm not even touching my maps.

[Gutshot John]

It's not just land-nav skills, it's land nav practice. Do you know your pace count over different terrain for instance?

Unless you practice with a map/compass regularly it will be difficult to use when the need arises.

You definitely want to consult a map before you set out to know what you're going to face/plan your route.

[RWBlue]

Maps and GPS are meant to be used in conjunction with each other, not as a replacement.

With the right GPS, a map is very redundant. (Not that that is a bad thing)

It's not just land-nav skills, it's land nav practice. Do you know your pace count over different terrain for instance?

Unless you practice with a map/compass regularly it will be difficult to use when the need arises.

I understand why the military uses pace count, but I don't really see the need.

Land Nav came easy for me. If I was in AK or AZ things would be different. Around here you have to work at getting lost. Now on the water that is a different story.

[Gutshot John]

With the right GPS, a map is very redundant. (Not that that is a bad thing)

I disagree but that's life. To me a GPS is almost cheating. I rarely need to refer to a map more than a couple of times a day as I usually pick the simplest route I can.

I understand why the military uses pace count, but I don't really see the need.

Knowing your pace count on a variety of terrain is a mark of experience/proficiency which I was really trying to get to. It may not always be relevant, but it's not a bad thing to know especially when weather/conditions get bad.

Land Nav came easy for me. If I was in AK or AZ things would be different. Around here you have to work at getting lost. Now on the water that is a different story.

Land Nav probably comes easy for you because of experience. It comes a lot easier to me than most people I've met, even in the military, but I still make mistakes. The average joe won't be so lucky. I recommend mastering the fundamentals before using the calculator.

In the southwest, I find landnav much simpler than in the northeast. I've never been to AK, but I have done land nav in triple canopy rain forest and that was a bitch.

[RWBlue]

To me a GPS is almost cheating.

It is and I am all for cheating when push comes to shove. Or when you want to find a drop site, or your fishing hole, or your dive site, or ....

Land Nav probably comes easy for you because of experience. It comes a lot easier to me than most people I've met, even in the military, but I still make mistakes. The average joe won't be so lucky. I recommend mastering the fundamentals before using the calculator.

Experiance is a great teacher. I will also admit to looking at my map/GPS more than you. I learned a long time ago that it is easier to stay unlost than to find your way back from being lost.

I agree that the average person can not find their way across town on a good day, on a bad day they are screwed. I have some interesting stories about this.

And I agree that everyone should start off with a map an compass.

In the southwest, I find landnav much simpler than in the northeast. I've never been to AK, but I have done land nav in triple canopy rain forest and that was a bitch.

Each environment has it's own issues.

My comment about AK or AZ is all about distances to human landmarks or in certain spots of AZ any landmarks.

Can I assume that the triple canopy forest issues is not being able to see more than 100 yards? If it is then I have had the same issue south of the boarder in a jungle. (I think it could be classified as a jungle.) I could see 100 yards maximum. There were no visible landmarks. There were no audible cues either because of the bugs.

[Gutshot John]

It is and I am all for cheating when push comes to shove. Or when you want to find a drop site, or your fishing hole, or your dive site, or ....

I still use a GPS.

Experiance is a great teacher. I will also admit to looking at my map/GPS more than you. I learned a long time ago that it is easier to stay unlost than to find your way back from being lost.

It's not really that hard...in good weather and good visibility. This is where looking at your map before you start out so you get a good mental image of the terrain pays huge dividends. When visibility decreases with cover, weather or darkness, difficulty exponentially increases. Experience pays dividends here.

I agree that the average person can not find their way across town on a good day, on a bad day they are screwed. I have some interesting stories about this.

And I agree that everyone should start off with a map an compass.

I've got a great story about a Marine who got lost at the NTA requiring an all night SAR mission. His new callsign became "Huck Finn". He could have walked his way out by following the river he was on.

Can I assume that the triple canopy forest issues is not being able to see more than 100 yards? If it is then I have had the same issue south of the boarder in a jungle. (I think it could be classified as a jungle.) I could see 100 yards maximum. There were no visible landmarks. There were no audible cues either because of the bugs.

100 yards MAYBE at noontime...10 MAYBE yards at dusk...1 foot MAYBE at night. Had Marines walk off cliffs. As an instructor it's where I cheated without hesitation...thank goodness I never ran out of batteries. The students had to rely on map, compass and pace count.