Magazine Well Hold

[LOKNLOD]

Shooting from a mag well hold feels like writing with a pencil by holding the eraser. Every movement is a very course adjustment.

The mag well hold does work good if you were to be standing around pointing your rifle at something for a long time.

[nyeti]

When I started shooting a bunch of 3 gun and combat rifle many years ago I did a bunch of unconventional (at the time) because I had no military experience. I used my magazine as a mono pod, I pulled my strong leg up shooting prone to raise my chest to breath easier, and when the VFG's first came out for the AR's, I ran it very far forward to better "drive" the gun. Great, won lots of matches, shot really well, etc.....

Fast forward a few years to when I could actually carry a Colt SMG/Ar-15 at work, and none had VFG's. I used the Mag well hold to pull the gun back to my shoulder like a VFG. It ran well using Harries with a flashlight (prior to actualy having lights mounted on the gun), and it was very fluid to manuver the gun around small indoor enviroments. I also found it much more relaxing and comfortable to carry and hold the gun in a low ready for hours on end during searches and static positions. So I essentially found that I liked the magwell stuff for running the gun in MY operational environment. With a dedicated VFG, I like somewhere close to the middle, or maybe slightly to the rear with a carbine length rail. I usually don't run a VFG on rifle length stuff, as I shoot those length guns for different purposes. I also found that my favorite gun for urban work is the Steryr AUG, which has a very compressed grip range.

Again, my environment is very different than what Larry's was. I do far more "prisoner taking" than shooting. Its like an ISO based system versus Weaver based. I think ISO is a better pure shooting technique, and I prefer Weaver based for actually moving around and searching. WHich do I do more of? I have done tens of thousands of high risk searches, been in hundreds of major physical fights while conducting this types of operations, and only had to shoot two people. The ability to move with the gun is more important to me than the pure shooting aspect. Others have a different out look. Not wrong-different.

P.S. I have shoot countless thousands of rounds with a magwell hold and never hit the bolt catch. I have found it fast on the reload to insert the mag, and hit the bolt release while reacquiring the magwell almost simultanously. YMMV.

[Hawkeye]

Wow. This makes two things in two days, that I have been doing forever, have been ribbed/chided/berated for, and now its being acknowledge as maybe not so crazy after all. I'm on a roll. Maybe I should go play the lottery.

[Aubrey]

nyeti,

Thanks. Your perspective is always enlightening.

[FJB]

I think nyeti (being the warrior that he is) summed up most of the advantages of both holds well. Having trained with both Pat, Larrry, and many others, as well as lots of USMC 'stick' time I have found that there are several ways to run the gun and they often are determined by METT-T (Mission, Enemy, Troops, Terrain - Time etc. - or as we often say the "non-answer" in other words not "the" way, but "a" way). Holding forward on the forend allows one to "drive" the gun faster from threat to threat in some environs. However, I have taught thousands of Marines to hold the magwell inorder to better control the gun for longer periods of time and to control the recoil better when shooting non-standard responses (i.e. more than three rounds). In training all of those Marines, we have never had a right handed shooter induce a bolt lock with their support thumb. The only problem that occurs early in the training is with "wrong" handed (south paws) shooters blocking the ejection port with their support hand. But once they learn where best to place their support hand the issue is resolved.

Like nyeti stated, the magwell hold also works for utilizing a Rogers like technique with a handheld Surefire flashlight pressing against the front of the lower receiver. This is ideal for issue rifles where mounting a light may piss off the unit SgtsMaj or Armorers.

Another reason for either moving the VFG closer to the magwell or using a magwell hold is weapons retention. Marine Corps Martial Arts Program currently teach rudimentary rifle retention techiques at the lower belt levels. However, highly recommend that every warrior take an Operational Skill Group weapons retention and disarm class. Once you learn how easy it is to disarm some one with a handgun or a longgun you also realize where you place your hands for retention is a factor that must be considered when running a gun in a CQB environ. Simply put, for a long gun the further your hands are separated the easier it is to be disarmed.

Finally, to comment on monopoding a Stoner system. If your M16/M4/AR fails to feed because you monopod or applied "pressure" on your magazine it is because you have a bad mag (discard it) not because of the technique. This myth was born from to many NRA Bullseye/Camp Perry shooters. Not a slam on them, but their focus is shooting not fighting with a firearm. While the fundamentals of shooting certainly apply, some of the techniques used for a match definitely don't.

Shooting competition is not a bad thing be it Bullesye or 3 Gun, but a mature warrior needs to know the difference and separate the wheat from the chaff. Also, a mature warrior who competes doesn't worry about winning a match using competition techniques, but improving their warrior skills by applying proper fighting techniques during the course fire. While I have won a few matches that has never been my purpose (although I can't lie and tell you that ego and competitive spirit does push me to want to cheat myself), my goal is more often than not to complete the course of fire as effectively as I can using proper fighting techniques. Efficiency in a competition often wins the match. While efficiency in combat is sometimes good, effectiveness in combat is the metric that is used to measure success.

So be careful when preaching about "the" way, as more often than not it is merely "a" way.

S/F
P.S. I have to state that I did gleam that last piece of wisdom from Pat Rogers during my continued maturing process as a warrior.

[Steve]

They dont look like there holding the forearm any further foward then you would with a vfg on the gun?

and then again the recoil must be terrible with those comps and heavy match barrels(joking kind of) i know game gear its great for games thats cool.


there are several voices of thought on vfg etc.......... as many have said find your way and become good at it

[KevinB]

I rest my mag when prone -- if I can

Its all about making a more stable platform - for the shooting I do -- that involves being out on the gun.



Edit:

I'm not try to be argumentative.

BTW that is a Stainless Steel 1:7 Douglas SPR profile 16 midlength barrel. I dont necessarily agree with LAV on everything either

[Dport]

Well, I decided to compare two different holds. One being out on the gun, aka LAV style. At the class I attended that he taught, he didn't use a VFG, just a "IPSC-like" hold on the handguard.

The other hold being the magwell hold. To be honest, I'm a big fan of the magwell hold. I consider it the most comfortable. I'm a lefty and haven't really had a problem with the ejection port, as long as I went "thumb forward."

Inspired by the footage of Saddam's hanging, I decided to break out the digital camera and record myself firing two shots with each hold.


The magwell hold always "feels" better, but the tape shows it isn't the best. I'm now sold on the forward hold.

[FJB]

DPort,
Great idea on the video taping for evaluation. I may try the same. Did you try both holds shooting NSRs (5-6 shots fired very rapidly semi-auto). It is like a Bill's Drill but with a carbine. Try this at 10 yards with the goal to keep them in the 10" ring and see which hold works best. Keep in mind that with the mag well hold you tuck both elbows in and pull the carbine in to your shoulder. Think like twisting and wringing a wet towel with both hands. Pointing the support thumb forward like I do when shooting a pistol is the method that I use even with a VFG.

KevinB,
Concur with you on the SS barrels as I have a Noveske 1:7 SS 5R polygonal on my 13.5 Infidel. That said, Larry gives credit to John Noveske and his barrels and carbines. I think when he mentioned SS barrels he mean't the Camp Perry SS rifled match barrels.

S/F

[Dport]

DPort,
Great idea on the video taping for evaluation. I may try the same. Did you try both holds shooting NSRs (5-6 shots fired very rapidly semi-auto). It is like a Bill's Drill but with a carbine. Try this at 10 yards with the goal to keep them in the 10" ring and see which hold works best. Keep in mind that with the mag well hold you tuck both elbows in and pull the carbine in to your shoulder. Think like twisting and wringing a wet towel with both hands. Pointing the support thumb forward like I do when shooting a pistol is the method that I use even with a VFG.

No I only did two rounds each to keep the length/size of the video down.
I used a NTCH hold and kept both elbows tucked in and did indeed keep the carbine tucked into the shoulder. If you watched the video you could see me readjusting to make sure my right elbow was tucked.

If I have time tomorrow, I'll do it again only with 5 rounds, with the shot timer. I can predict the results already. The difference was that noticeable.