I see this all the time

[Zhukov]

You have no idea how many times I've argued these points. You can usually tell right away what someone's disposition is; if they cally it "Jell-O", you know they've got their mind made up. Sometimes you can reach people, sometimes you can't.

[ETA] People have a real problem understanding that ballistic gelatin doesn't do anything but model the bullet's performance in flesh. Somehow, it always comes back to "Jello doesn't shoot back", or other factors which NO test medium can hope to measure. Ballistic gelatin doesn't account for the mental state of the aggressor either (which no simulant will ever be able to do), but yet they somehow claim that that's a shortcoming with ballistic gelatin.

[wrinkles]

Here's another one I just saw.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Besides presenting lots of commercial data about various 9mm loads and including the irrelevant TKO numbers, what does this chart accomplish?

[wrinkles]

Besides presenting lots of commercial data about various 9mm loads and including the irrelevant TKO numbers, what does this chart accomplish?

That's the thing the OP and the people responding to his post are not considering the TKO number irrelevant. They think the numbers are IT, the next best thing in choosing ammo.

[hatt]

People who only care about the TKO are going to pick loads with higher values, not on that chart. CorBon 115+P has a 7.9 v 7.7 which is the highest TKO on that list.

[buzz_knox]

But what do I know, though I have been an inter-city LEO for the last 18 years, I have never had the need to shoot a duct tape wrapped chicken...

Don't underestimate your opponent. I once ended up with a hole in my knee and a concussion (it's a long story) from a ticked off rooster.

The only good chicken is a marinated chicken.

[Wayne Dobbs]

wrinkles,

The TKO number was devised about a century ago to very subjectively measure the performance of non-expanding RIFLE bullets on large game such as elephants, Cape buffalo, etc. Based on those characteristics, it has little relevance to pistol bullets except possibly in comparing the predicted performance of large caliber cast hunting bullets.

Its value in low powered expanding handgun bullet performance measurement is questionable at best and riotous optimism at worst.

[wrinkles]

wrinkles,

The TKO number was devised about a century ago to very subjectively measure the performance of non-expanding RIFLE bullets on large game such as elephants, Cape buffalo, etc. Based on those characteristics, it has little relevance to pistol bullets except possibly in comparing the predicted performance of large caliber cast hunting bullets.

Its value in low powered expanding handgun bullet performance measurement is questionable at best and riotous optimism at worst.

Exactly my point people throw around the numbers thinking it's just the greatest "NEW" method of rating self defense ammo without actually knowing anything about it's history, how it came about, or wanting to spend some time researching it. It's just taken a gospel.

[tpd223]

I was told yesterday that the 9mm is basically worthless, just like the .38 it mimics, but that a .45 round will tear your arm off.

[csheehy]

This is cribbed from someone's sig line on a similar (to M4C) internet forum...I think it expresses this whole kaliber kontroversy perfectly:

"I like to shoot people with a .45 because when you hit them, they dissolve in a shower of sparks..."

Chris Sheehy