Can someone explain fancy knives to me...

[Gutshot John]

you also cannot carry a "dagger". of course, the legislators did not bother to define "daggger", so who knows what exactly that means...

i think a good guess, though, would be a fixed blade knife that comes to a point and is sharp on both edges...thus being designed for stabbing more than just cutting.

but, who knows...

I'm not sure where the dagger/double-bladed issue is addressed in the statute, but if you're aware of another relevant statute I'd be very grateful to see it. There are also municipal statutes that probably vary from place to place, like Philly is much stricter than the rest of PA.

I believe it would be situationally dependent. For example if the dagger was part of a ceremonial costume it would be acceptable.

Just like carrying a large-blade bowie knife while hunting is no big deal...walking through a shopping mall might get you arrested. Similarly if you were a law-abiding citizen with no record the cop might write you the $100 ticket, if you've got a record for armed robbery with a knife...you're going to jail. All in all I believe this gives local law enforcement wide discretion in how to handle it.

Thus it is in your interest to pick a blade small enough to be readily concealed but there is no prohibition on fixed blades as such like there is in other parts of the country. In fact I'm thinking about a new belly/appendix knife for Eric to make.

[khc3]

I love posts like these.

[LittleRedToyota]

I'm not sure where the dagger/double-bladed issue is addressed in the statute, but if you're aware of another relevant statute I'd be very grateful to see it.

here it is:

http://law.onecle.com/pennsylvania/c...9.008.000.html

§ 908. Prohibited offensive weapons.
(a) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the
first degree if, except as authorized by law, he makes repairs,
sells, or otherwise deals in, uses, or possesses any offensive
weapon.
(b) Exceptions.--
(1) It is a defense under this section for the defendant
to prove by a preponderance of evidence that he possessed or
dealt with the weapon solely as a curio or in a dramatic
performance, or that, with the exception of a bomb, grenade
or incendiary device, he complied with the National Firearms
Act (26 U.S.C. § 5801 et seq.), or that he possessed it
briefly in consequence of having found it or taken it from an
aggressor, or under circumstances similarly negativing any
intent or likelihood that the weapon would be used
unlawfully.
(2) This section does not apply to police forensic
firearms experts or police forensic firearms laboratories.
Also exempt from this section are forensic firearms experts
or forensic firearms laboratories operating in the ordinary
course of business and engaged in lawful operation who notify
in writing, on an annual basis, the chief or head of any
police force or police department of a city, and, elsewhere,
the sheriff of a county in which they are located, of the
possession, type and use of offensive weapons.
(3) This section shall not apply to any person who
makes, repairs, sells or otherwise deals in, uses or
possesses any firearm for purposes not prohibited by the laws
of this Commonwealth.
(c) Definitions.--As used in this section, the following
words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this
subsection:
"Firearm." Any weapon which is designed to or may readily be
converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive
or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.
"Offensive weapons." Any bomb, grenade, machine gun, sawed-
off shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches, firearm specially
made or specially adapted for concealment or silent discharge,
any blackjack, sandbag, metal knuckles, dagger, knife, razor or
cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an
automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or
otherwise, any stun gun, stun baton, taser or other electronic
or electric weapon or other implement for the infliction of
serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose.
(d) Exemptions.--The use and possession of blackjacks by the
following persons in the course of their duties are exempt from
this section:
(1) Police officers, as defined by and who meet the
requirements of the act of June 18, 1974 (P.L.359, No.120),
referred to as the Municipal Police Education and Training
Law.
(2) Police officers of first class cities who have
successfully completed training which is substantially
equivalent to the program under the Municipal Police
Education and Training Law.
(3) Pennsylvania State Police officers.
(4) Sheriffs and deputy sheriffs of the various counties
who have satisfactorily met the requirements of the Municipal
Police Education and Training Law.
(5) Police officers employed by the Commonwealth who
have satisfactorily met the requirements of the Municipal
Police Education and Training Law.
(6) Deputy sheriffs with adequate training as determined
by the Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and Delinquency.
(7) Liquor Control Board agents who have satisfactorily
met the requirements of the Municipal Police Education and
Training Law.
(Dec. 20, 1983, P.L.291, No.78, eff. imd.; July 6, 1984,
P.L.647, No.134, eff. 90 days; July 11, 1985, P.L.235, No.58,
eff. 60 days; Oct. 4, 1994, P.L.571, No.84, eff. 60 days; Nov.
6, 2002, P.L.1096, No.132, eff. 60 days)

2002 Amendment. Act 132 amended subsec. (c).
References in Text. The act of June 18, 1974 (P.L.359,
No.120), referred to as the Municipal Police Education and
Training Law, referred to in the def. of "police officer," was
repealed by the act of December 19, 1996, P.L.1158, No.177. The
subject matter is now contained in Subchapter D of Chapter 23 of
Title 53 (Municipalities Generally).
Cross References. Section 908 is referred to in section 6105
of this title; section 3304 of Title 5 (Athletics and Sports).

as i mentioned, though, they don't actually define "dagger", but most common dictionary definitions seem to focus on it being pointed and used for stabbing. all in all, the wording of the definition of "prohibited weapons" is very sloppy.

you could actually interpret it as barring all knives..and sandbags . on the other hand, you could also interpret it as only barring sandbags with automatically opened blades.

[Gutshot John]

here it is:

http://law.onecle.com/pennsylvania/c...9.008.000.html



as i mentioned, though, they don't actually define "dagger", but most common dictionary definitions seem to focus on it being pointed and used for stabbing. all in all, the wording of the definition of "prohibited weapons" is very sloppy.

you could actually interpret it as barring all knives..and sandbags . on the other hand, you could also interpret it as only barring sandbags with automatically opened blades.

I think it just mentions "dagger" but for said dagger to be illegal it goes on to say...

the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or otherwise

That's my reading of the statute, that it must be an automatic knife in some way for it to be considered across the board illegal in the state.

Maybe a lawyer could clarify this for us.

[LittleRedToyota]

That's my reading of the statute, that it must be an automatic knife in some way for it to be considered across the board illegal in the state.

i can see how it could be read that way...

but, if you are going to read it that way, then it follows that blackjacks, sandbags, and metal knuckles are also only illegal if they have a blade that is exposed in an automatic way.

that's what i meant about the wording being sloppy.

there is a list of things...some of which typically have blades, some of which do not typically have blades. in the middle of the list, there is the wording about "the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way".

so what all in the list does that qualification apply to?

consistency of logic dictates it should apply either to:

1. everything on the list that comes before it; or

2. only to the one thing that comes immediately before it.

but, neither of these seems to be the case...

if it is #1, the qualification applies to daggers, but also to also metal knuckles, sandbags, and blackjacks...which don't generally have blades. so, that makes no sense.

if it is #2, it does not apply to daggers (meaning any dagger is illegal), but also does not apply to knives (meaning any knife is illegal). this is clearly not the case either as it is not illegal to carry a regular knife.

if they really meant it to apply to daggers, knives, razors, or other cutting instruments, they should have used some semi-colons instead of all commas in the list (like putting a semi-colon after "metal knuckles" and then another one after "or otherwise") to indicate to which items on the list the qualification applies and to which items it does not.

Maybe a lawyer could clarify this for us.

my guess is none of them would if there isn't case law clarifying the wording of the statute. or they would just say "well, it might get interpreted this way...or that way".

[Gutshot John]

\
but, if you are going to read it that way, then it follows that blackjacks, sandbags, and metal knuckles are also only illegal if they have a blade that is exposed in an automatic way.

I would think that the "blade" criteria is applied only to knives/daggers and the like...things that have a blade.

A blackjack/sandbag would be considered illegal irrespective of method of deployment since it serves no alternate legal purpose, whereas a knife would.

[mtk]

one thing i don't think has been mentioned is the ability to easily open the knife one-handed.

if the knife is to be used for defensive purposes, that is, imho, essential.

a fixed blade is better, of course. but, if you are going to carry a folder for defense, imho, you absolutely must be able to open it easily with one hand.

Unfortunately, these things seem to be like everything else in that they're designed for the 90% of the populace that is right-handed and not the remaining 10% of us who are left-handed.

[MX5]

My choices in an EDC knife start with 3 basic needs:

1. I need a folding knife that I can trust to not fail & close on my fingers under extreme use. A simple test is to lock it open, & while wearing very heavy leather gloves to protect those same fingers, strike the back of the blade very harshly against a wooden work bench to test the lock mechanism. If the lock cannot hold-up for repeated strikes, I move on.

2. I need a folding knife that I can open quickly one-handed without using the hole/stud/coin/etc. that's attached to the blade for opening. I need to be assured that I can quickly open the knife without that feature in case I'm unable to access it due to injury, etc.

3. I need a blade that can hold an edge.

If it can't pass all 3 of these, I have no use for it as an EDC. Surprisingly few pass #1. Some might call this abuse, but I know I can trust the folder I'm carrying. FWIW, I'm carrying an Emerson - because I can. It suits my needs.

[thopkins22]

There seems to be a happy medium in the $100-$200 range The range where you get a steel that is leaps and bounds above cheap knives, and a lockup that is stronger and way more durable.

The further you go past that, the less added real value there is. I've gone beyond it, but the best value in a knife that I've ever bought was the Buck Strider folder. Cheap knives are great if you're the type of person that would lose his head if it wasn't attached.

Yes I use it more often but the consenquences of it failing are that I will have to wait until I get home to open that clamshell package.

If you can use the Boy Scouts safe knife handling method 100% of the time, then you're right. If you're ever in a situation where those methods are impractical or impossible, then the consequences could involve you losing an inch or two off of your fingers.

[LittleRedToyota]

Unfortunately, these things seem to be like everything else in that they're designed for the 90% of the populace that is right-handed and not the remaining 10% of us who are left-handed.

my gerber evo works equally well with either hand. there are other folders out there that do also. the opening mechanism is on the "back" of the knife instead of one "side", so it is equally accessible from either hand.

this is actually very important to me as well as i carry it on my weak side so i can use it to help defend against a gun grab...so i need to be a able to use it with just my left hand.

(of course, a fixed blade would be better...and there there are certainly better folders out there than the gerber evo. but that gerber has actually been through a fair amount of abuse on camping trips and the like and has held up pretty well.)