"active shooter" training for the armed civilian?

[ST911]

A friend of mine has a trunk setup with a custom rifle bag with storage for their NFA paperwork and a tactical vest with "civilian responder" on the back as opposed to " sheriff" or "police". At least it'll make the responding officers think before shooting at you, hopefully giving them a second to realize you're not a threat.

I don't know if that's better or worse than an ID panel with "Innocent Bystander" or "Witness".

I don't know how the cops actually knowingly go into a situation that they may be killed.

It's all the cool black stuff with velcro on it that keeps us going.

Here is some poor 30 year cop with a photo of his pretty wife, new baby and his dog taped to the visor.... and he is now in full kill mode running towards the red hot bullets.

All too often, for low wages, mediocre benefits, and little gratitude from the public.

F that, I'm going home to have sex and then play barbies with my daughter.

I can't find an amusing graphic for a syntax fail.

[ToddG]

I don't know if that's better or worse than an ID panel with "Innocent Bystander" or "Witness".

Yes you do ...

I can't find an amusing graphic for a syntax fail.

PM sent.

[larry0071]

You know what I ment!

I meant that I would go be with my wife and play with my girl. To her, forcing me to play with barbies or those webkins is the best time around.

[HiggsBoson]

Most of the replies here have focused on how not to get shot by the responding officers. As with most threads on this site, I am led to the conclusion that I need far more training with capable instructors.

What happens after the resolution of an Active Killer situation (and presumably not having been shot by the LEO)? What can a citizen do to avoid being prosecuted and possibly facing civil litigation in such situations? I suspect Good Samaritan laws would not be applicable to the use of force, but INAL (I'm Not a Lawyer). Are there states/municipalities where laws lend a bit of protection or legitimacy to the citizen offering aid in the form of force? The cliché about every bullet having a lawyer attached to it exists for a reason. Still I can't help but wonder if there are more civilian-involved shootings that don't end in a trial than we know about.

[larry0071]

I believe that in PA there is written law that allows a standard Joe to shoot to kill if a felony crime related to violence is in progress to another human. I'm not one that studys the law books so I have no idea where to go and find it, but I know I have seen it quoted on another site (PAFOA).

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Telly Salvas, right

Have fun for the buddy that has a rifle in his trunk and a jacket with police panels. Get pulled over and searched, You got some splanning to do Lucy.


You get shot by the cops, you get shot by the cops; it's business. Seems like the best advice is to keep your pecker in your pants until you actually face a threat. If after that you take out the bad guy, the benefit of protecting your family has the price of for running the risk of blue-on-you shooting.

I'm surprised none of the LEOs have discussed how their AK tactics deal with a CCW holder in the midst. With millions of CCW holders, it is going to happen. Is that just an operational issue that just needs to be kept confidential?

[ToddG]

Most LEOs have an almost suicidal imperative to shout some kind of warning before shooting someone. I've seen cops in FOF scenarios shout commands at someone who is repeatedly stabbing a defenseless woman on the ground.

So for me, the Big Clue is when a police officer tells me to drop my gun, I should probably drop my gun. Even if I have to say, "Dude, you don't understand, there's a guy over there with a crossbow pointed at my head," I'm still dropping the gun.

Something not mentioned but that I've also seen in stressful FOF scenarios: you've just slain a herd of school-shooting dragons. You're amped up and hypervigilant. A police officer -- possibly one wearing black tactical gear like the dragons, or possibly a plainclothes/UC officer -- walks around the corner with a gun in his hands. Will your friend-or-foe skills be able to temper your quick trigger?

[John_Wayne777]

What happens after the resolution of an Active Killer situation (and presumably not having been shot by the LEO)?

Good question. It depends on where this happens, who the authorities are, and how the events play out.

What can a citizen do to avoid being prosecuted and possibly facing civil litigation in such situations?

Get it right. In other words, use lethal force in compliance with law and precedent in the state where the event takes place without causing any collateral damage. A bullet in the wrong person can turn a hero into a trigger happy jackass real quick.

I'm neither a gunfighter or a legal expert, but my general position is this:

The most plausible/safest course of action for most people is to get the hell out of dodge as quickly as humanly possible. Use the concealed weapon only if you are left with absolutely no other choice, as in the bad guy is between you/your family and the exit. If you're under a direct threat from the shooter your hand is pretty much forced...you have to fight to stay alive. If, however, you have the ability to get out, do so.

This doesn't sound very macho or sheepdog, but I would argue that it's advice firmly grounded in reality. Possession of a handgun does not automatically make the average guy capable of saving the world.

Many people have the flaw of looking at these things in hindsight and deciding they could have handled the situation. In reality when the shooting starts you are going to have precious little information to base your decision making on, and the consequences of getting it wrong couldn't be more severe. If you're the average guy eating Sbarro at the mall when some assclown opens up, you're instantly confronted with a lot more questions than answers, like:

- How many bad guys are there?
- Is the bad guy wearing armor?
- Does the bad guy have explosives?
- What is the bad guy armed with?
- How far away is a police response? (responding officers with the best of intentions can kill you just as dead as the malevolent narcissist shooting the place up)
- What are you armed with?
- What are you capable of doing under stress with your current equipment?
- What is in the bad guy's background if you miss?

Etc.

The list of questions that pop up in that kind of a moment is almost endless, and the list of answers you have readily on hand is extremely limited. When you are on your own without the benefit of the public good will that sworn officers generally receive from the public, those concerns are not insignificant.

[John_Wayne777]

I'm surprised none of the LEOs have discussed how their AK tactics deal with a CCW holder in the midst. With millions of CCW holders, it is going to happen. Is that just an operational issue that just needs to be kept confidential?

When shots are being fired there are two types of people:

Threats
Innocents

Someone with a gun in their hand is a threat. They may be Mr. Average Joe Hero with a CCW permit who has just taken out the threat, but it's impossible to tell that in the moment.

The only way a uniformed officer responding to a 911 call is going to be able to tell you aren't a lethal threat in that moment of confusion is to follow commands and do exactly what you're told. If you see the cops coming, drop the gun immediately and get the hands up. Cooperate with the officers. Don't talk to much. Just "Yes, sir." and obey the commands. You will be cuffed. It's better than being dead.

If the threat is still ongoing when your path intersects with the cops, it's their problem. You're role at that point is to A. keep the cops from shooting you and B. keep from tying up valuable on scene resources that need to go to the sound of the guns.

[CCK]

A similar thread on Warriortalk (Gabe Suarez's board) basically came to the conclusion that the non-LEO (LEO are civilians too) should make haste to the door with their "tribe" in tow. If confronted by Active Shooter, do what's necessary, but don't seek out shooter.

Some questioned why not help, to which the hive responded that the innocents should have done what the warriortalk members do, carry and defend yourself and your tribe. It's not like they didn't have fair warning; Beslan and Mumbai.

The sheepdog metaphor has been pretty well dispatched over there. I hope it happens here too.

Chris