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Thread: recoil spring life span?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmart
    What is your source of information for this statement?
    Personal experience and talking with spring manufacturers. Take a new SS spring and measure it. Stick it in your weapon. Come back a month later and measure it again.



    C4

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant
    Personal experience and talking with spring manufacturers. Take a new SS spring and measure it. Stick it in your weapon. Come back a month later and measure it again.



    C4
    That's the initial set. A CS spring will do the same, at least so says David Tubbs who has been selling these things for years.

    From what I understand, further degradation occurs from compression and rebound cycles, not just sitting in a safe static.

    So compared to a CS spring, a SS or music wire spring will experience further degradation from usage more quickly than will a CS spring. While it may not lose compression resistance, it will lose rebound energy. This loss directly affects feeding and chambering.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmart
    That's the initial set. A CS spring will do the same, at least so says David Tubbs who has been selling these things for years.

    From what I understand, further degradation occurs from compression and rebound cycles, not just sitting in a safe static.

    So compared to a CS spring, a SS or music wire spring will experience further degradation from usage more quickly than will a CS spring. While it may not lose compression resistance, it will lose rebound energy. This loss directly affects feeding and chambering.
    You are correct. Unless a spring is stressed beyond the elastic limit of the material, being compressed indefinitely won't do anything. Cyclic wear over time is what wears them out. This is the same as the ubiquitous "can I leave my pistol magazines loaded" discussions.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmart
    That's the initial set. A CS spring will do the same, at least so says David Tubbs who has been selling these things for years.

    From what I understand, further degradation occurs from compression and rebound cycles, not just sitting in a safe static.

    So compared to a CS spring, a SS or music wire spring will experience further degradation from usage more quickly than will a CS spring. While it may not lose compression resistance, it will lose rebound energy. This loss directly affects feeding and chambering.
    Negative. Not from shooting, just letting it sit IN the weapon unused. Meaning, you install the spring and let it sit in the weapon and never fire it. You come back and the spring has shortened.

    All springs take a set the first time the weapon is shot. The main difference between SS and CS is that the SS springs keeps on taking it.


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 01-21-07 at 15:06.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant
    Negative. Not from shooting, just letting it sit IN the weapon unused. Meaning, you install the spring and let it sit in the weapon and never fire it. You come back and the spring has shortened.

    All springs take a set the first time the weapon is shot. The main difference between SS and CS is that the SS springs keeps on taking it.


    C4
    Tubbs states that both spring materials will take an initial set -- CS are not immune to this.

    SS may take a bigger set, I don't know. But if you put a SS spring in, let it sit one month and measure, then re-insert and let it sit another six months, I don't think you're going so see any additional set (shortening).

    If you shoot it during that six month period it will degrade (shrink in length further).

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmart
    Tubbs states that both spring materials will take an initial set -- CS are not immune to this.

    SS may take a bigger set, I don't know. But if you put a SS spring in, let it sit one month and measure, then re-insert and let it sit another six months, I don't think you're going so see any additional set (shortening).

    If you shoot it during that six month period it will degrade (shrink in length further).
    No one is saying that a CS spring will NOT take a set. I am stating that a SS spring just sitting in your RE, will shorten EVEN though you have never fired the weapon.
    Just as an FYI, this info comes via ISMI and then I duplicated it. They know FAR more about springs than you and I put together. Some of the conversations I have with them about springs, makes my head hurt.

    I have not seen the ISMI springs that I have let sit in a weapon change shape like the SS springs. You will see the SS spring shorten (noticeably).


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 01-21-07 at 15:29.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant
    No one is saying that a CS spring will NOT take a set. I am stating that a SS spring just sitting in your RE, will shorten EVEN though you have never fired the weapon.
    Just as an FYI, this info comes via ISMI and then I duplicated it. They know FAR more about springs than you and I put together. Some of the conversations I have with them about springs, makes my head hurt.

    I have not seen the ISMI springs that I have let sit in a weapon change shape like the SS springs. You will see the SS spring shorten (noticeably).


    C4
    Fair enough, I guess I read more into your initial statement than what you said. I thought you were suggesting that loss from resting in a static state was continual over time. My point was each type of spring will take an initial set, even from ersting in a static state. The CS spring set will be less than the SS spring set, and further degradation over it's life will be less than a SS spring's.

  8. #48
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    So what is the rate of shrinkage of an SS spring?

    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant
    There is a flaw in your thinking. The issue with SS springs is that they lose length JUST sitting in your weapon. This is why CS is the clear choice for springs as they don't suffer from this issue like SS springs do.

    You spend extra coin on Colt AR's because they follow the TDP and do things correctly. You then cheap out on springs when there are better options out there. I guess its kind of like buying a Porche and then putting General tires and water downed gas in it. Make sense? Didn't think so.C4
    This is new and different. For argument's sake, let's assume your hearsay evidence is true. Then a quarterly PM will pick up the shrinkage, won't it? Or will it shrink to out-of-spec low in less than 91 days? Now, how about providing us some hard evidence of your assertion? What is the rate of shrinkage? Maybe I do need to go the CS route on the ones in the safe that don't get fired much. Why they are shrinking as we speak?

    You would have me put a new CS $18.00 spring in every 3000 rounds. Great for your bottom line, but not mine. Give me the rate of shrinkage for both so we can run a cost-benefit analysis and maybe I'll agree with you. Otherwise, it's like asking a barber if you need a haircut.

    BTW, I "cheap out" with Colt part number springs, which presumably follow the TDP, from Brownells, with the discount. It makes sense to me but I'm not a self-described "spring snob." Snob appeal is a marketing technique. "Snob Appeal": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion by appealing to what an elite or a select few (but not necessarily an authority) in a society or community thinks or believes. If it's working for you, Grant, that's great.
    "The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts." Justice Robert Jackson, WV St. Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

    "I don’t care how many pull ups and sit ups you can do. I care that you can move yourself across the ground with a fighting load and engage the enemy." Max Velocity

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Submariner
    This is new and different. For argument's sake, let's assume your hearsay evidence is true. Then a quarterly PM will pick up the shrinkage, won't it? Or will it shrink to out-of-spec low in less than 91 days? Now, how about providing us some hard evidence of your assertion? What is the rate of shrinkage? Maybe I do need to go the CS route on the ones in the safe that don't get fired much. Why they are shrinking as we speak?

    You would have me put a new CS $18.00 spring in every 3000 rounds. Great for your bottom line, but not mine. Give me the rate of shrinkage for both so we can run a cost-benefit analysis and maybe I'll agree with you. Otherwise, it's like asking a barber if you need a haircut.

    BTW, I "cheap out" with Colt part number springs, which presumably follow the TDP, from Brownells, with the discount. It makes sense to me but I'm not a self-described "spring snob." Snob appeal is a marketing technique. "Snob Appeal": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion by appealing to what an elite or a select few (but not necessarily an authority) in a society or community thinks or believes. If it's working for you, Grant, that's great.

    There is no firm measurement on how much a SS spring will shrink and wasn't the point of my post. The point (that you missed) is that shrinkage happens in SS springs while they are doing nothing. If your trying to be as prepared as possible and want springs that will last twice as long than standard SS springs, then CS is really the only way to go.

    I really don't care when you change out your springs. I also don't care how you come to the conclusion that they are worn out. I personally never pay to much attention to round count when I am using quality springs. I do a simple test with a 30rd mag and the bolt locked back to figure out if my buffer spring is GTG or not.

    To my knowledge, the TDP doesn't really specify anything about springs (except length). The TDP also doesn't always suggest the best componets either and we all know that there are many ways to improve upon the TDP.

    As I said, you choose Colt weapons because they use better materials, but choose to go the cheap route on your springs. This is of course your choice, but there are better options out there than factory springs.



    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 01-21-07 at 20:45.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant
    As I said, you choose Colt weapons because they use better materials, but choose to go the cheap route on your springs. This is of course your choice, but there are better options out there than factory springs.

    C4
    And I asked you for some evidence, other than what your vendors tell you to sell you their products, e.g. comparative shrinkage rates, so we could determine which is more cost-effective. You may very well be correct. But comparing the rates and cost/frequency of replacement over time settles the matter, not just your say so. OK?

    What is so hard about providing it? Isn't that how one objectively determines if a choice is "cheap"? More expensive (and profitable to you) doesn't necessarily mean my choice is "cheap", does it?
    "The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts." Justice Robert Jackson, WV St. Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

    "I don’t care how many pull ups and sit ups you can do. I care that you can move yourself across the ground with a fighting load and engage the enemy." Max Velocity

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