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Thread: Piston or Gas?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas M-4 View Post
    That link you gave I read over 2 years ago It has nothing to do with LWRC ,HK , LMT, or any other gas piston AR. It does mention the FN SCAR [ A SHORT STROKE PISTON ASSAULT RIFLE DESIGNED FROM THE GROUND UP AS A REPLACEMENT FOR THE M-4 IN SOCOM ] . Have you read this entire thread?? Because I am only talking about adaptations..

    Are you trying to point out the bolt failure at 6,000 - 10,000 rounds ???
    Did you know barrels only last to 6,000-10,000 rounds ???
    Did you know that when you replace the barrel that you also replace the bolt???
    What is your point with that link???

    The proprietary bolt carrier that LWRC has that uses the slight downward slope [THAT RE-VECTORED FORCES INSURING INSURING THE CARRIER IS PUSHED STRAIGHT BACK] your own words. WHERE DOES THE FORCES GO???????????????? THEY GOT TO GO SOME WHERE RIGHT.. Do you want a hint?? They go to the gas piston/ pushrod that is pushing your carrier to the rear. Can you show me a SHORT STROKE GAS PISTON DESIGNED FROM THE GROUND UP THAT PUTS TORQUE INTO THE GAS PISTON/ PUSHROD THAT WAS A SUCCESSFUL DESIGN ???
    Geez, you're a cranky little......

    I see we are not an engineer. The design DOES NOT apply a torque to the op rod. The Op rod strikes the anvil (the key) and the force is vectored down intot he carrier. This will not eliminate side-loading, but helps redirect the force vector.


    The great thing is SETH HARNESS [HAS DESIGNED THE BEST ANTI TILT BOLT CARRIER DEVICE THAT I HAVE SEEN TO DATE BETTER THAN THE SKID PADS AND BETTER THAN THE ANGLED KEY THAT VECTORS FORCES HIS DEVICE SPREADS THE FORCE ACROSS THE CARRIER BUFFER & BUFFER TUBE.
    Yeah, it's a cool idea. But I add again... provide evidence of failures due to "carrier tilt." I bet you can't. And I mean FAILURES, not wear you find "unacceptable."

    Why does every body that has piston systems keeps throwing up round count numbers to me??? I dont care if YOU HAVE 1,000,000 ROUNDS THROUGH IT.
    I NEVER EVER SAID ANY THING ABOUT FAILURES I HAVE STATED THAT MORE THAN ONCE THAT I AM MERELY POINTING OUT DESIGN FLAWS.
    If a "design flaw" doesn't cause failures, it's not a design flaw. Ever done risk management? If there is no consequence to the risk, it's not a risk.


    By the way for those people that do not know the difference between FORCES AND TORQUE THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME THING.
    Not QUITE. A force CAN cause torque, but it doesn't HAVE to. So no, not exactly the same.

    This engineering class 101 has been going on for days If you most know every detail about this I suggest you get in SCHOOL.. ITS $330 A CREDIT HOUR.
    B.S.M.E. UMCP 1990. R&D Engineer for the U.S. Navy 1990-present (as both a civil servant and contractor).

    ]By the way the enhanced bolt that you say is in your LWRC I HAVE THAT EXACT SAME BOLT IN MY M-4 CARBINE ITS MADE BY LMT I AM ALSO RUNNING THE ENHANCED CARRIER DO YOU KNOW WHAT ITS SUPPOSE TO DO???
    Its suppose to reduce the stress on the bolt that runs in a carbine gas system.
    The enhanced bolt in the LWRC is not an LMT bolt. The whale tail extractor is intended to improve extraction.

    The bolt carrier is intended to slow unlock and reduce stress on the lugs... what does that have to do with this thread?
    Last edited by Sttrongbow; 05-02-09 at 21:47.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sttrongbow View Post
    Geez, you're a cranky little......

    I see we are not an engineer. The design DOES NOT apply a torque to the op rod. The Op rod strikes the anvil (the key) and the force is vectored down intot he carrier. This will not eliminate side-loading, but helps redirect the force vector.
    Redirect the force where ?



    Yeah, it's a cool idea. But I add again... provide evidence of failures due to "carrier tilt." I bet you can't. And I mean FAILURES, not wear you find "unacceptable."



    Do you have a short attention span I never posted failures why do you keep bringing this up? The rifle wasn't designed to wear there so yes its unacceptable.


    If a "design flaw" doesn't cause failures, it's not a design flaw. Ever done risk management? If there is no consequence to the risk, it's not a risk.



    If you are happy with that risk then go for it buddy .



    Not QUITE. A force CAN cause torque, but it doesn't HAVE to. So no, not exactly the same.


    Can you point out that it doesn't cause torque





    B.S.M.E. UMCP 1990. R&D Engineer for the U.S. Navy 1990-present (as both a civil servant and contractor).



    The enhanced bolt in the LWRC is not an LMT bolt. The whale tail extractor is intended to improve extraction.

    The lmt enhanced bolt has a whale tail extractor to also to improve extraction
    does it look like the one thats the 8th& 9th pic from the top?
    http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum...read.php?t=341

    The bolt carrier is intended to slow unlock and reduce stress on the lugs... what does that have to do with this thread?
    My bad I was just trying to figure out why you posted that link that didnt have anything to do with gas pistons thread ?
    Last edited by Thomas M-4; 05-03-09 at 00:14.

  3. #93
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    i have piston uppers because i like to try new/different stuff. like food. variety is the spice of life, and it keeps my hobby interesting.
    i'm an engineer, and i enjoy all things mechanical, so i like seeing the different solutions that people come up with.

  4. #94
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    I stay away because I rushed to snag a BM GP upper receiver when I first noticed them over a year ago. The most expensive straight pull bolt-action rifle I have ever owned. I went over it several times. It would cycle and then not cycle in the same magazine. I tried Prvi Partizan, Remington, and 5.56 XM855 Lake City though PMAG, Bushmaster Magazines, and C-Product Magazines. I traded it for a kitted out WASR-10, sling, mags, ammo, a ton of spare AK parts, etc.

    I will say it kept the bolt clean and all like the gas piston rifles are supposed to compared to the DI system. I will also admit Bushmaster is not the best thing in the world, though my A2M4 works well. (My first AR and why I thought the BM would be fine. Little did I know back then about anything.)

    So I am leery of the GP AR-15 rifle variants. Kinda wish I kept it though to run it by you guys, but water under the bridge. If I ever get the bug again who makes the best GP AR-15?

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas M-4 View Post
    My bad I was just trying to figure out why you posted that link that didnt have anything to do with gas pistons thread ?
    He didn't I did, almost as an after thought to a minor point in my post,which I guess you were offended by because you then appeared to be upset and became rather insulting.

    Most of what I was saying was that in my small sample size & in the round count that I indicated I had not seen any indications of carrier tilt or carbon buildup on the piston to date. I did not dismiss it out of hand but my experience did not substantiate your theory.

    Before I came back here the engineers jumped in and the matter appeared to have run it's course. In the end each to their own.
    Last edited by Sigmax; 05-03-09 at 03:19.
    “Like a sword, a word can wound or kill, but as long as one does not touch the blade, the sword is no more than a smooth piece of steel. Someone who knows the qualities of a sword does not play with it, and someone who knows the nature of words does not play with them.”-- Miyamoto Misashi

  6. #96
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    In the next couple of years I only plan on adding more piston guns to the collection (SCAR, XCR-M, LWRC M6A3, ACR/Masada, HK416).

    They will join my current, ever growing piston collection (XCR-L, LWRC, Robinson M96)

    I've whittled my direct gas collection down to 3 Colts. I will not be buying anymore direct gas guns in the future.
    Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
    What Happened to the American dream? It came true. You're looking at it.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigmax View Post
    He didn't I did, almost as an after thought to a minor point in my post,which I guess you were offended by because you then appeared to be upset and became rather insulting.

    Most of what I was saying was that in my small sample size & in the round count that I indicated I had not seen any indications of carrier tilt or carbon buildup on the piston to date. I did not dismiss it out of hand but my experience did not substantiate your theory.

    Before I came back here the engineers jumped in and the matter appeared to have run it's course. In the end each to their own.
    Sorry man your right you did post that Its hard keeping track of things with 3 kids running around. I am all with trying new things I cant begin to count engine swaps supercharger installs nitrous systems, tranny swaps. Hell I even swapped out entire suspension sn-95 mustang to a fox body mustang just to get a wider track and to get 4 wheel disk brakes. I looked at piston conversion my self found the pros and cons looked at the DI system I really liked how MR Stoner set all of the moving parts inline with the barrel I think thats really a smart design and its proven to work. When I recommend something to some one especially somebody new for me I will recommend the most proven system simply because I dont want them to have problems and get frustrated and dump the entire Idea.
    Obviously piston adaptations work I just will not recommend them for newbies because I want them to have the smallest learning curve and if they do have a problem I want them to be able to get it fixed in the shortest and easiest way. I have found that makes the experience the most enjoyable for the most people in my opinion. If you have 3 or 4 AR'S and want to try something different that's fine If you are one of those people has to try some thing different and likes the challenge IF something goes wrong more power to you brother I am 100% with you.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmanflynn View Post
    Im not new to firearms but new to the AR, which brings me to my question. What are the pros of a straight gas tube system versus the gas piston system? I know the straight gas is dirtier while the piston is cleaner, but thats about it, i have no experience with the pistons. Is their really a difference in accuracy, or realiability? or is it just a matter of preference? Im building my first AR and havnt bought an upper so help me out here
    Since you're asking the question then there is 99.99% probability that you don't need a piston gun.
    Chief Armorer for Elite Shooting Sports in Manassas VA
    Chief Armorer for Corp Arms (FFL 07-08/SOT 02)

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmanflynn View Post
    I was more just looking at other AR options really, im quite content with the punch of the 7.62 as opposed to the 5.56. I think the AK was made for the 7.62 and the AR for the 5.56. Although it would be interesting to have the ruggedness of the AK action in a 5.56, but those are probably few and far between id guess. I was just entertained by the fact that theres a piston AR i wasnt really dead set on a piston or DI im just happy to be able to build one
    Consider an AK-101 style Saiga conversion.

  10. #100
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    What about the Piston Conversion kit offered by Adams Arms? It has several videos on it's website along with a few independant videos on you tube. The system looks well thought out ans claims several advantages over competitors. It also offers an upgrade BCG with "skis to allay fears of Tilt and also has a built up ker that spreads the linear force more evenly lower down the BCG. It is the system Smith and Wesson M&P Ar's run with.

    I only have DI expeirnce but have thoughts of installing one on a poly lower Sabre Defence M$ flatop I have yet to fire..

    Thoughts?

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