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Thread: Piston or Gas?

  1. #111
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    imo,

    a re-designed solution from existing engineering (FAL, M1a etc.) posing as a solution in an effort to embellish & ratioanlize a non existant problem IMO. Most of them offer little or no benefits over a DI gun.

    In fact more moving parts to fatique or fail.

    Time will tell.
    Last edited by VooDoo6Actual; 01-22-10 at 19:10.

  2. #112
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    As a frame of reference I have been hosting 2 to 5 tactical training classes a year, every year since 2001. A side from the classes I host I also take other training classes. I've been a full time Police Officer for 14 years, I've been a SWAT cop for 11 years, and I'm a Firearms Instructor for my agency, our Police Academy, SWAT Team, and SWAT Academy. Prior to that I was in the Marine Corps (Infantry / Security Forces).

    In the early 60's when the M16 first came on line there were several important people that wanted to see the M16 fail. So troops were told that they didn't have to clean their guns, they used the wrong powder in the ammo (ie. they were suppose to use stick powder and they used ball powder), etc. By doing this the M16 got a reputation as being an unreliable platform.

    In my opinion the reason that the direct impingement gas system (DI) has gotten such a bad reputation in recent years is because people go out an buy low end AR's or they try to build a AR from parts from various manufacturers. They end up with a gun that is unreliable and this feeds into the myth that the DI gas system is unreliable.

    When I was in the USMC the main malfunctions were caused from shooting blanks and magazine related. I had seen a hand full of other problems, but they were far and few between.

    In the training classes that I host and take on my own and from the AR15's that I see in training and qualification courses at work. Colt, LMT, BCM, Noveske, etc. run well. While CMMG, DPMS, Olympic Arms, Bushmaster, Stag Arms, RRA and others have a high number of reliablity problems.


    Piston guns. I have seen a lot of piston guns that have had problems. I have never seen a POF make it through an entire class without problems. About half the Sigs that I have seen have had problems. About 1/3 of the LWRC guns I have seen have had problems.

    From my experience piston guns

    -have a sharper recoil impulse
    -they are heavier
    -piston system guns are more expensive
    -the different piston systems are new and haven't had the time to be as thouroughly tested as the DI gas system
    -many of the piston system operate on a slightly different system

    Piston systems on the AR15 is a fairly new concept (most within the last decade). The DI gas system in use on the AR15 has been in service for close to 60 years, this has given engineers time to work the bugs out of the DI system. Not the same can be said for the piston systems used on the AR platform.

    In my opinion the piston system is not needed on the AR15 and it exists because guys buy lower end AR15's, many of these lower end AR15's are not reliable, and when a shoorter buys or builds an unreliable AR15 it feeds into the myth that the DI gas system is unreliable. DI gas system AR15's are not created equal. There are different levels of quality.

    A well known trainer has a DI gas system BCM upper that had 26,000 rounds through it before it was ever cleaned. Currently the gun has just shy of 29,000 rounds on it. Read this article for more info:


    03designgroup | BCM Complete AR15 Upper and Lower Receivers



    In short I see no need to buy a piston upper. Buy a QUALITY AR15 with quality ammo, quality magazine, lube it, and it will run without any issues.




    Just my experience.

  3. #113
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    Excellent write up '03,

    I was ready to jump on the GP bandwagon a couple of years ago myself but have since learned that THIS guy doesn't need one. I understand that a few individuals running a SBR with a can may see a benefit from a GP but I am not in that class, and I don't think most "civies" are either. Like you said, go with a good quality carbine and most people will be covered. Again good write up, thanks a lot.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    Pistons are way too problematic. They're a solution to a problem that's really been exagerated big time.
    I agree. I have a mechanical engineering background, and when researching my first 5.56, I decided that if I was going to go piston, that the Sig 55x was the way to go. It was designed for piston from the ground up. The AR pistons have too many basic physics issues to overcome.

    If you're really concerned about the "issues" of the AR platform, grab a KAC SR-15. Its bolt really addresses the issues without fighting the basic premise of the weapon: direct impingement.
    Last edited by MaD HuNGaRIaN; 01-24-10 at 19:35.

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by USMC03 View Post
    As a frame of reference I have been hosting 2 to 5 tactical training classes a year, every year since 2001. A side from the classes I host I also take other training classes. I've been a full time Police Officer for 14 years, I've been a SWAT cop for 11 years, and I'm a Firearms Instructor for my agency, our Police Academy, SWAT Team, and SWAT Academy. Prior to that I was in the Marine Corps (Infantry / Security Forces).

    In the early 60's when the M16 first came on line there were several important people that wanted to see the M16 fail. So troops were told that they didn't have to clean their guns, they used the wrong powder in the ammo (ie. they were suppose to use stick powder and they used ball powder), etc. By doing this the M16 got a reputation as being an unreliable platform.

    In my opinion the reason that the direct impingement gas system (DI) has gotten such a bad reputation in recent years is because people go out an buy low end AR's or they try to build a AR from parts from various manufacturers. They end up with a gun that is unreliable and this feeds into the myth that the DI gas system is unreliable.

    When I was in the USMC the main malfunctions were caused from shooting blanks and magazine related. I had seen a hand full of other problems, but they were far and few between.

    In the training classes that I host and take on my own and from the AR15's that I see in training and qualification courses at work. Colt, LMT, BCM, Noveske, etc. run well. While CMMG, DPMS, Olympic Arms, Bushmaster, Stag Arms, RRA and others have a high number of reliablity problems.


    Piston guns. I have seen a lot of piston guns that have had problems. I have never seen a POF make it through an entire class without problems. About half the Sigs that I have seen have had problems. About 1/3 of the LWRC guns I have seen have had problems.

    From my experience piston guns

    -have a sharper recoil impulse
    -they are heavier
    -piston system guns are more expensive
    -the different piston systems are new and haven't had the time to be as thouroughly tested as the DI gas system
    -many of the piston system operate on a slightly different system

    Piston systems on the AR15 is a fairly new concept (most within the last decade). The DI gas system in use on the AR15 has been in service for close to 60 years, this has given engineers time to work the bugs out of the DI system. Not the same can be said for the piston systems used on the AR platform.

    In my opinion the piston system is not needed on the AR15 and it exists because guys buy lower end AR15's, many of these lower end AR15's are not reliable, and when a shoorter buys or builds an unreliable AR15 it feeds into the myth that the DI gas system is unreliable. DI gas system AR15's are not created equal. There are different levels of quality.

    A well known trainer has a DI gas system BCM upper that had 26,000 rounds through it before it was ever cleaned. Currently the gun has just shy of 29,000 rounds on it. Read this article for more info:


    03designgroup | BCM Complete AR15 Upper and Lower Receivers



    In short I see no need to buy a piston upper. Buy a QUALITY AR15 with quality ammo, quality magazine, lube it, and it will run without any issues.




    Just my experience.
    Good wright up USMC03. I've noticed the POF thing as well. The one in my last class was a jammamatic throughout the course. I came very close to buying one several years ago and hope it would live up to expectations. It seems unless you are running suppressed in a SBR a lot, a piston is a solution in search of a problem, that doesn't exist in a quality AR.
    For God and the soldier we adore, In time of danger, not before! The danger passed, and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted." - Rudyard Kipling

  6. #116
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    seriously im gratefull for USMC03 reviews and info but jesus you plug that BCM sht whenever you can dont you..



    got a kickback deal with them or what? oh wait they sell your chest harness dont they! bet you get deals on parts too...

    seriously i own a BCM upper and i own some piston guns.. to say the DI runs better is blasphemy....

    you want to do some real testing without operator/mags/ammo.... variables and then the BCM comes out on top then so be it.. but i would be willing to bet a hefty penny on the gas system lasting a hell of lot longer then a DI gun given the same treatment equally.

    wait didnt the military already do this test... what was the outcome again

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by clickclack View Post
    seriously im gratefull for USMC03 reviews and info but jesus you plug that BCM sht whenever you can dont you..



    got a kickback deal with them or what? oh wait they sell your chest harness dont they! bet you get deals on parts too...

    seriously i own a BCM upper and i own some piston guns.. to say the DI runs better is blasphemy....

    you want to do some real testing without operator/mags/ammo.... variables and then the BCM comes out on top then so be it.. but i would be willing to bet a hefty penny on the gas system lasting a hell of lot longer then a DI gun given the same treatment equally.

    wait didnt the military already do this test... what was the outcome again




    What's your background again, clickclack?

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoolBreeze View Post




    What's your background again, clickclack?
    a non biased shooter..... who rides no-ones jock strap just looking for the best equipment..

    whats yours?

    biased shooter or jock strap rider?

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by clickclack View Post
    a non biased shooter..... who rides no-ones jock strap just looking for the best equipment..

    whats yours?

    biased shooter or jock strap rider?
    Good job not answering the question. I can guess why you haven't, though.

    USMC03 gave his training bio, and linked credible sources who've been shooting the hell out of the product in question. You haven't.

    His affiliation with the company does not mean that he can not recommend them as a product. If you notice, his recommendation was to buy a quality product, not a BCM product.

    I would recommend quantifying how your DI BCM doesn't run better than your piston one, in detail, if I were you....that is if you feel like sticking around, and contributing more than unsubstantiated claims with nothing to back them up.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoolBreeze View Post
    Good job not answering the question. I can guess why you haven't, though.

    USMC03 gave his training bio, and linked credible sources who've been shooting the hell out of the product in question. You haven't.

    His affiliation with the company does not mean that he can not recommend them as a product. If you notice, his recommendation was to buy a quality product, not a BCM product.

    I would recommend quantifying how your DI BCM doesn't run better than your piston one, in detail, if I were you....that is if you feel like sticking around, and contributing more than unsubstantiated claims with nothing to back them up.
    Look buddy.. I respect USMC03 and i actually have spent time on his site reading and taking in stuff. He will for sure be more of a valuable asset to this forum then I.

    BUT I think its unfair to other members who might not know the affiliations certain posters have with certain companies. that said i think DI guns are great if you maintain them right.. There are pro's and cons for both systems..

    without going to much into my credentials (which i shouldnt have to justify to post on a forum anyways) I know for a fact that special operations run Gas sytems and sigs........ NOT DI AR's and Glocks butt reading the internet one would think a colt ar and glock 19 are the end all in firearms.. well NOT SO MUCH!

    ive spoken to reall Trigger pullers about this subject and They Prefer gas systems. over the DI gun....

    some of you guys might just be too Long toothed to accept the future in firearms..

    some of you might have invested interest in DI.. some of you might just be ignorant to the facts.. IDK

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