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Thread: Why the Benelli M4 (or M1014, depending...) Hate?

  1. #1
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    Why the Benelli M4 (or M1014, depending...) Hate?

    I have seen NUMEROUS people who claim (not that I dispute it) time using the M1014 as-issued.

    A lot of them express either ho-hum opinions, or just outright dislike for the weapon.

    I own/have shot several shotguns, from a fixed choke 870 Wingmaster, to a Winchester 1500 semi-auto. I am by no means a shotgun maven.

    I do, however, LOVE both M4's that I have owned. Both have been flat out reliable, both have been deadly accurate with whatever I feed them, and both pattern buckshot very well with the stock choke, and even better when you find an aftermarket one they like (I run Trulock MOD Flush-Fit Stainless chokes as a matter of preference).

    I don't get it, the shotgun is mentally challenged simple, dead-nuts reliable, and pretty darn user-friendly after you figure out that the sights are to be used different from what you are used to (dots DO NOT line up when used correctly).

    So...why all the hate? Are you all just a bunch of pump-gun lovers that are having trouble with "the new thing", or have you had failures/ect. that have shaped your opinions?
    Last edited by WS6; 05-03-09 at 02:45.

  2. #2
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    I am speaking as a former Marine who was issued a M1014 and took it to Iraq:

    I ****ing love it!

    ...most complaints I hear have been from 3-gunners.
    Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Owner of MI-TAC, LLC .

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    Reasons I find it sub-optimal-

    Collapsable stock that does not adjust. When in body-armor the stock is too long, and when collapsed it is too short to use.

    Non intuitive manual of arms. While common to other semi-auto shotguns I am sure somebody could simplify and streamline the controls. They are also not fun when going lefty. The pistol grip is unnecessary and adds a snag-hazard when in tight confines with the shotty slung. The gun is also pretty long, which makes it difficult to maneuver and position in close confines.

    The inertia requirement of the operating system makes it unacceptable for military breaching applications as the system will not reliably cycle unless there is a shoulder planted behind the stock. Breaching is my primary application of the shotgun, and pumps just work better than the 1014 for my primary application.

    The only place there is a rail is on the top of the receiver. A lot of people seem to want to have a shotgun fill a carbine role, and while this is dumb for a number of reasons, it is pretty much impossible since the 1014 lacks attachment points for simple requirements such as IR devices and white lights. Sure, you can still use it in the day, but even when the sun is up, there are a lot of places inside enclosures that need to be illuminated by the user for a whole lot of reasons.

    The 1014 does not work with many of our non-lethal rounds. While I don't really care much about non-lethal, the ability to select different rounds it often touted as a benefit to shotgun use, and one that the 1014 fails to meet.

    The effective range of shotguns with slug is often advertised at 100 to 150 meters. While an average user can hit a torso reliably at 100 meters with rifled slugs, with an M4 the user can usually tell you which eye they hit.

    The over-confidence in the "stopping power" of the 12 gauge. Sure, when all is said and done, the 12 puts pretty big holes in things- but there are lots of people running around who at one point had a big hole put through them. There is no magic bullet, even if it says "12 ga" on it. While the choice to provide MPs with the 1014 is probably pretty good, as it will do what they need it to do at the distances relevant to their job, it is not all that handy for most other shotgun users.
    Jack Leuba
    Director of Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    Reasons I find it sub-optimal-

    Collapsable stock that does not adjust. Mine has 3 positions, the middle-one being all but perfect. When in body-armor the stock is too long, and when collapsed it is too short to use.

    Non intuitive manual of arms. While common to other semi-auto shotguns I am sure somebody could simplify and streamline the controls. They are also not fun when going lefty. The pistol grip is unnecessary and adds a snag-hazard when in tight confines with the shotty slung. The gun is also pretty long, which makes it difficult to maneuver and position in close confines. Doesn't the M4/AR platform have a pistol grip and isn't it about the same length as the M4S90?

    The inertia requirement of the operating system makes it unacceptable for military breaching applications as the system will not reliably cycle unless there is a shoulder planted behind the stock. Breaching is my primary application of the shotgun, and pumps just work better than the 1014 for my primary application. The M4S90 has no "inertia" component. You CAN limp-wrist it, like any other weapon, including the 1911, M9, and ar-15 (although I have to REALLY try to limp-wrist an AR, and I need Wolf or other crap ammo to do it). I can fire my M4 with regular birdshot 1-handed. No shoulder is needed for function, just accuracy/sensibility.

    The only place there is a rail is on the top of the receiver. A lot of people seem to want to have a shotgun fill a carbine role, and while this is dumb for a number of reasons, it is pretty much impossible since the 1014 lacks attachment points for simple requirements such as IR devices and white lights. Sure, you can still use it in the day, but even when the sun is up, there are a lot of places inside enclosures that need to be illuminated by the user for a whole lot of reasons. This is my complaint. I want to put a light on my M4 and the only current solutions other than aftermarket handguards (all of which are crap, currently) is a band-aid type remedy.

    The 1014 does not work with many of our non-lethal rounds. While I don't really care much about non-lethal, the ability to select different rounds it often touted as a benefit to shotgun use, and one that the 1014 fails to meet. I agree

    The effective range of shotguns with slug is often advertised at 100 to 150 meters. While an average user can hit a torso reliably at 100 meters with rifled slugs, with an M4 the user can usually tell you which eye they hit. True, but the shotgun is meant as a building clearing/jungle type weapon that will take out multiple organ systems and cause rapid incapacitation. Fielding an M4S90 at 150 yards is like fielding a AR-15 at 1,000 yards. Not practical, reguardless if it TECHNICALLY can make the hits.

    The over-confidence in the "stopping power" of the 12 gauge. Sure, when all is said and done, the 12 puts pretty big holes in things- but there are lots of people running around who at one point had a big hole put through them. There is no magic bullet, even if it says "12 ga" on it. While the choice to provide MPs with the 1014 is probably pretty good, as it will do what they need it to do at the distances relevant to their job, it is not all that handy for most other shotgun users.
    Placement Placement Placement.


    I went through, commenting/etc. on things I didn't understand your position on/why. I have not been in combat, nor do I claim to have stayed at a holiday inn, so I may not be "up to speed", but mainly what I got from you:

    You don't like the way the M4 is being expected to perform (as a carbine replacement--it is not).
    Also, you apparently were issued one of the older models with the crappy 2-position tube. No wonder you hated it.
    It needs a fixture for a light. The best "bandaid" I have seen was some 1913 pic-rail welded to the rear barrel-hanger and a Millinium Surefire+LT mount combo. It was pretty darn slick! Still, I am not down with it. It should have a factory hardpoint for it.
    Last edited by WS6; 05-25-09 at 16:53.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    Reasons I find it sub-optimal-

    Collapsable stock that does not adjust. When in body-armor the stock is too long, and when collapsed it is too short to use.
    Get the three position, not the two position as issued to the Marines.

    Non intuitive manual of arms. While common to other semi-auto shotguns I am sure somebody could simplify and streamline the controls. They are also not fun when going lefty. The pistol grip is unnecessary and adds a snag-hazard when in tight confines with the shotty slung. The gun is also pretty long, which makes it difficult to maneuver and position in close confines.
    I agree that the manual of arms is much more complicated than a 870, but plenty of people learn it and are good with it, with some practice. Pistol grips - on any shotgun - do have some advantages, including better ability to hold the gun in against the body without "chicken winging" your elbow out and more "natural" arm and hand position.

    Ammo sensitivity, I agree with you. The M4 seems to run well with a decent spectrum of ammo by all reports, but if you need to breach doors and it doesn't run your breaching load, then chuck it.

    I don't have any use for one given that it's $1800 and I'm used to the 870 and its manual of arms, but the M4/1014 seems to work well for many.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbrowne1 View Post
    Get the three position, not the two position as issued to the Marines.



    I agree that the manual of arms is much more complicated than a 870, but plenty of people learn it and are good with it, with some practice. Pistol grips - on any shotgun - do have some advantages, including better ability to hold the gun in against the body without "chicken winging" your elbow out and more "natural" arm and hand position.

    Ammo sensitivity, I agree with you. The M4 seems to run well with a decent spectrum of ammo by all reports, but if you need to breach doors and it doesn't run your breaching load, then chuck it.

    I don't have any use for one given that it's $1800 and I'm used to the 870 and its manual of arms, but the M4/1014 seems to work well for many.
    #9 shot has/is successfully used to breech (from what I hear). This is NOT optimal, but it does work. How common are breeching rounds vs. #9 in inventory anyways? (I don't know?)

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    Sorry I missed the recent discussion on this, but I don't frequent the Shotgun forum except when I see something on the main page that grabs my attention.

    Anyway, responses and observations to your questions (and remember that I am talking about issued M1014s. If you can get a commerical solution to my issues, good for you, but that isn't going to change much as far as the actual issued item is concerned)-

    The comment about the pistol grip on the M1014, and the response tells me that I failed to properly explain the issue. The problem is not when the gun is in hand, it is when the M1014 is slung to be used as a breaching tool (the primary application of a shotgun for people that do this type of thing professionally) the pistol grip sticks out and is more "catchy" than other types of breaching shotgun grips. This is a problem unique to the M1014 because the shotty spends way more time strapped to you than your carbine. When utilising certain entry techniques and when working in close confines, anything that protrudes from the shooter is a snag hazard, and elimination of snag hazards are a sign of a professional that knows what he is doing. The M1014 designers either did not ask any professionals about breaching concerns, or completely disregarded their input. This is proven by the gun's inability to function with the then standard breaching round (there are now breaching rounds that work with it, being designed specifically for it), lack of light attachments (a valuable thing on a breaching shotgun), snag points (pistol grip, charging handle), and incorrectly setup stock (most breaching shotguns have the stock completely removed and the grip is usually a more gentle curve and not as sticky as the M1014 grip).

    There is a distinct amount to inertia required to cycle the weapon. I prove this every time I fire the gun without my shoulder behind the gun when in a breaching application. As far as breaching, keep in mind why we have breaching rounds. It is not because other types of rounds can't get through doors/door jambs, it is beacuse of what the projectile(s) do once they get through. We are trying to limit the danger inside the room during the breach because we are dealing with a *suprise* locked door and will generally not be able to see who is inside the room, and it is generally a good idea to keep non-threats free of large holes. This is also what distraction devices are for- minimizing permanent damage to non-combatants.

    The shotgun is NOT meant as a building clearing tool. The limited ammo capacity and extended reload time make it more of a hinderance than asset. Internet commandos can argue all they want about it, but those of us that do this for real do not.

    Now to be clear, I can run a 1014 pretty well. I have mastered the manipulations of the gun through practice and am comfortable with the gun. If I was demoted and forced to become a gate guard I would be perfectly happy with a 1014 due to it's ability to punch through vehicles to negatively interface with the occupants. I know its limitations and its strengths, and how to best apply the tool. It belongs on gates, not in compounds.
    Jack Leuba
    Director of Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    Sorry I missed the recent discussion on this, but I don't frequent the Shotgun forum except when I see something on the main page that grabs my attention.

    Anyway, responses and observations to your questions (and remember that I am talking about issued M1014s. If you can get a commerical solution to my issues, good for you, but that isn't going to change much as far as the actual issued item is concerned)-

    The comment about the pistol grip on the M1014, and the response tells me that I failed to properly explain the issue. The problem is not when the gun is in hand, it is when the M1014 is slung to be used as a breaching tool (the primary application of a shotgun for people that do this type of thing professionally) the pistol grip sticks out and is more "catchy" than other types of breaching shotgun grips. This is a problem unique to the M1014 because the shotty spends way more time strapped to you than your carbine. When utilising certain entry techniques and when working in close confines, anything that protrudes from the shooter is a snag hazard, and elimination of snag hazards are a sign of a professional that knows what he is doing. The M1014 designers either did not ask any professionals about breaching concerns, or completely disregarded their input. This is proven by the gun's inability to function with the then standard breaching round (there are now breaching rounds that work with it, being designed specifically for it), lack of light attachments (a valuable thing on a breaching shotgun), snag points (pistol grip, charging handle), and incorrectly setup stock (most breaching shotguns have the stock completely removed and the grip is usually a more gentle curve and not as sticky as the M1014 grip).

    There is a distinct amount to inertia required to cycle the weapon. I prove this every time I fire the gun without my shoulder behind the gun when in a breaching application. As far as breaching, keep in mind why we have breaching rounds. It is not because other types of rounds can't get through doors/door jambs, it is beacuse of what the projectile(s) do once they get through. We are trying to limit the danger inside the room during the breach because we are dealing with a *suprise* locked door and will generally not be able to see who is inside the room, and it is generally a good idea to keep non-threats free of large holes. This is also what distraction devices are for- minimizing permanent damage to non-combatants.

    The shotgun is NOT meant as a building clearing tool. The limited ammo capacity and extended reload time make it more of a hinderance than asset. Internet commandos can argue all they want about it, but those of us that do this for real do not.

    Now to be clear, I can run a 1014 pretty well. I have mastered the manipulations of the gun through practice and am comfortable with the gun. If I was demoted and forced to become a gate guard I would be perfectly happy with a 1014 due to it's ability to punch through vehicles to negatively interface with the occupants. I know its limitations and its strengths, and how to best apply the tool. It belongs on gates, not in compounds.

    Since I have not "been there, done that" I cannot argue many of the points you made, and they make sense to me.

    Some points to consider though.

    There is a field-stock available for the M4 (again, civ. purchase).

    Also, I am assuming you effectively limp-wristed the shotgun using breaching rounds, which are "underpowered" and probably barely cycle it anyways. The M4 can be prone to this, but you are confusing limp-wristing with the Benelli ID system, which MUST have some rear-ward movement. The M4 does not like rearward movement. I can still fire mine 1-handed, held away from my body, rapid-fire, with birdshot.

    Anyways, yes, the M4 is more prone to limp-wristing.

    Basically, what I have gathered:

    You view the shotgun as a breeching tool. The M4 is overpriced, and sucks, quite frankly, for THIS application.

    Ergo, you do not like it.

    However, were you in a position where it's unique attributes could help, you would love it (MP, home-defence maybe, etc.)

    Have I correctly understood?

    I like the M4 because 9 shots SHOULD be enough for me, I like having control 0-100 yards, and beyond that I don't need it in the civilian world, and it is dead-nuts reliable. Moreso than ANY other weapon I have experience with (from Les Baer 1911's to SIG226's to an H&K USP to an AR) excluding a bolt-action rifle and the Glocks I have shot.
    Last edited by WS6; 05-31-09 at 02:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    Also, I am assuming you effectively limp-wristed the shotgun using breaching rounds, which are "underpowered" and probably barely cycle it anyways. The M4 can be prone to this, but you are confusing limp-wristing with the Benelli ID system, which MUST have some rear-ward movement. The M4 does not like rearward movement. I can still fire mine 1-handed, held away from my body, rapid-fire, with birdshot.
    I do not mean this to sound defensive or angry, but I am not confused in my terminology. I am not referring to an inertial based operating system (as with other semiauto shottys), but rather with the actual interaction of the bolt and receiver during recoil and operation.

    Inertial based operating systems will not cycle if they are fired with the stock planted against a wall (they will sometimes work if planted on a light car though ). The M1014 does not have an inertial based operating system. As with all gas operated systems the bolt only travels under power for a relatively short distance. In most guns (with much less recoil) the bolt travels quickly to the rear in relation to the rearward movement of the receiver during recoil. Having a heavy mass behind the weapon further slows the rearward movement of the gun. The same applies to the 1014, but the heavier recoil characteristics cause the rearward movement of the receiver to coincide with the movement of the bolt, which results in failures to eject and stove-pipes if there is not sufficient force to retard the rearward movement of the gun during recoil.

    You can best see this by holding the gun horizontally with the right hand holding the forearm and the left hand holding the top of the pistol grip and firing the gun with the thumb. I have personally induced dozens of stoppages this way for demos using 3" 00 Buck and Hatton rounds. I don't know how it works with slug.

    Basically, what I have gathered:

    You view the shotgun as a breeching tool. The M4 is overpriced, and sucks, quite frankly, for THIS application.

    Ergo, you do not like it.

    However, were you in a position where it's unique attributes could help, you would love it (MP, home-defence maybe, etc.)

    Have I correctly understood?
    I think you understand what I am saying.
    If I was given the gun for free I would have no qualms with using it for tasks suited to general purpose shotguns (if I could get the 3-pos stock ). If I had to pay for it I am not so sure.

    I am not saying that you shouldn't like your gun. If it works for you and does what you want it to do, rock on.
    Jack Leuba
    Director of Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    I do not mean this to sound defensive or angry, but I am not confused in my terminology. I am not referring to an inertial based operating system (as with other semiauto shottys), but rather with the actual interaction of the bolt and receiver during recoil and operation.

    Inertial based operating systems will not cycle if they are fired with the stock planted against a wall (they will sometimes work if planted on a light car though ). The M1014 does not have an inertial based operating system. As with all gas operated systems the bolt only travels under power for a relatively short distance. In most guns (with much less recoil) the bolt travels quickly to the rear in relation to the rearward movement of the receiver during recoil. Having a heavy mass behind the weapon further slows the rearward movement of the gun. The same applies to the 1014, but the heavier recoil characteristics cause the rearward movement of the receiver to coincide with the movement of the bolt, which results in failures to eject and stove-pipes if there is not sufficient force to retard the rearward movement of the gun during recoil.

    You can best see this by holding the gun horizontally with the right hand holding the forearm and the left hand holding the top of the pistol grip and firing the gun with the thumb. I have personally induced dozens of stoppages this way for demos using 3" 00 Buck and Hatton rounds. I don't know how it works with slug.



    I think you understand what I am saying.
    If I was given the gun for free I would have no qualms with using it for tasks suited to general purpose shotguns (if I could get the 3-pos stock ). If I had to pay for it I am not so sure.

    I am not saying that you shouldn't like your gun. If it works for you and does what you want it to do, rock on.

    I understand how you cause stove-pipes now. Yes, I get what you are saying. Sorry I was confused.

    If you got stoppages where the shell ejected, and another shell was on the elevator, but the elevator did not come up/bolt locks back, then you have a magazine-spring issue. It is weak. Replace it. I had similar issues with my M4 using the stock 27" spring in a FL tube until I upgraded springs.

    Yes, the M4 likes something firm behind it for optimal function.
    Last edited by WS6; 05-31-09 at 11:06.

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