Why the Benelli M4 (or M1014, depending...) Hate?

[dbrowne1]

#9 shot has/is successfully used to breech (from what I hear). This is NOT optimal, but it does work. How common are breeching rounds vs. #9 in inventory anyways? (I don't know?)

I have no idea either. All I know is that if your gun doesn't run a type of ammo that you need to use for whatever your job/mission might be, then you need a different gun. Some folks don't have the supply chain or the allowances in their policies to substitute birdshot or play with other types of breaching loads. They're given X and if the gun doesn't run X then it's useless.

[rob_s]

We had at least 3 of our match shooters jump on the M4 bandwaggon, only to have multiple reliability and feeding issues, requiring multiple trips back to get worked on, culminating in the problems never going away and the owners selling off the guns.

I'm not a shotgun guy so I don't know what their issues were, but they seemed to be constant and ongoing every time I talked to one of them.

For civilian purposes, I'm not sure what it is that the M4 is supposed to do so well that it justifies the price. I had an M3 years ago (and at least I never had any malfunctions with it) that ultimately led me to the same question: what is it that this $1k+ shotgun is doing for me that my $250 police-turn-in 870 doesn't?

[Robb Jensen]

Personally I don't 'hate' Benelli shotguns. I actually like them. My wife owns a 1st edition M1014 she bought it from where I work (before I started working there) she handled it and liked it and got it for a steal. I own a Super Black Eagle which I use for deer and turkey hunting (I only use 3.5" shells in it). I used a M1 Super 90 for 3gun for quite sometime I got it used and it took a lot to get it to run right for 3gun. I ended up having to use a Wolff reduced power action/recoil spring and a Benelli Montefeltro inertia spring in the bolt to get it to run. I'm now using a FN SLP Mk 1.

As a whole I think Benelli shotguns are very highly overrated.
Many are finicky on the power level of the ammo and most have the same recoil as pump shotguns. Most Benellis won't cycle low-brass ammo. In 12ga most will run with 3 dram or more powerful ammo just fine. My M1 required expensive Winchester 3 dram loads where as my FN will run on the econo priced ($23/per 100 rounds) Federal low-brass all day long and recoils about like a 7.62x39mm AK. The FN gets a little dirtier since it's gas operated but it doesn't take long to clean. Cleaning takes about 10min.

[DMR]

First I have no experiance with the M-1014 being a regulur Infantry Army type. I have used the M-500, 870 11-87 and 930's and supervised the use of the LSS( ). I was introduced the the military application of the shotgun while working at West Point, 88-00, by a long time batt boy. He later went to work for H&K then AWG.

The article I linked earlier gives a long over view and failuretostop gives great points specificly about the M-1014. The M-1014's roots go back to the Joint Shotgun Program of the late 90's. In the end only the USMC purchased the 1014 in any numbers. A few also ended up in various SOF units. The specifications were mainly targeted for various guard functions, MP's and ect. Ablity to reliably cycle Less Lethals and Breaching rounds was dropped from the requirements because they could not get it to work. To the best of my knowledge only the 1014 was submited since the spec was designed around the M-4.

Like the LSS, the MASS and the variations of the CAWS program the M-1014 is the result of a poor requirement due to lack of understanding of shotgun employment in the military context. Shotguns are best suited to be specialty weapons not carbine replacements due to short range, low capacity, difficulty reloading, and bulk of the ammo. Ammo selection is also a issue that is not studies often enough.

In it's primary role of secondary weapon/tool the shotgun is slung often, shot little. In this role the 1014 or just about any other production semi auto shotgun is a poor choice. The 20" barrel and collapsed stock mean the shotgun is hanging down by your knees or rigged up on a ruck sack and not easily availible. Semi auto funtion means that you will be carring it with a round in the chamber. Given they shotgun spends most of it's time slung while you climb over walls, burst through doors, run down the street, ect. it is often taught that breaching shotguns are slung at "cruiser ready" ie no rounds in the chamber, mag tube full.

Even the current issue Mossberg 500/500A1's with their 18" or 17" barrels and pistol grips only are a little long for use as a secondary, but are workable as would a 870. Shorter 16 1/8", 14" or even 10" shotguns are better for use as a secondary when coupled with a proper sling. The 10" shotguns have a following, but I would prefer the additional rounds the 14" modals provide. The 16 1/8" barrels also provide for a stand off device.

If for some odd reason you are going to use the shotgun (in a military enviroment) as a primary, perhaps the M-1014 would be a good choice, but I'll stick with a pump Outside of military use the M-4 is a heavy and expensive shotgun that in it's civilian clothes has such odd things as the reduced capacity mag tube and fixed want to be stock. FN get's around this on their imported SLP's by installing the extended US made mag tubes in SC, why can't Benelli? In a civilian or LE role I prefer semi's for various reasons, unless specialty rounds are to be used, but I personaly wouldn't step up for a $1400+ M-4 and forget paying the insane amounts that the adjustable stocks are going to on the civilian market.

[WS6]

We had at least 3 of our match shooters jump on the M4 bandwaggon, only to have multiple reliability and feeding issues, requiring multiple trips back to get worked on, culminating in the problems never going away and the owners selling off the guns.

I'm not a shotgun guy so I don't know what their issues were, but they seemed to be constant and ongoing every time I talked to one of them.

For civilian purposes, I'm not sure what it is that the M4 is supposed to do so well that it justifies the price. I had an M3 years ago (and at least I never had any malfunctions with it) that ultimately led me to the same question: what is it that this $1k+ shotgun is doing for me that my $250 police-turn-in 870 doesn't?

The M4S90 had a lot of teething problems when it first came out. What model was it? The M1014 or the 11703 or 11707? Basically, what year was it that you observed this? All of the new (last few years) 11707's I have owned/seen in action feed/work everything donw to 2.75 dram target loads just fine. No reliability issues at all.

[rob_s]

Like I said, I don't know. and don't really care.

Ultimately it doesn't matter to me. The Benelli M4 doesn't interest me in the slightest because:
A) it's a shotgun
B) it's a Benelli
C) it's over $1k
D) it doesn't offer me anything an 870, 11-87, or Saiga doesn't
E) it's a shotgun

You asked "Why the Benelli M4 (or M1014, depending...) Hate?", so A-E, plus some more if I gave it enough thought, are my answers.

[WS6]

Like I said, I don't know. and don't really care.

Ultimately it doesn't matter to me. The Benelli M4 doesn't interest me in the slightest because:
A) it's a shotgun
B) it's a Benelli
C) it's over $1k
D) it doesn't offer me anything an 870, 11-87, or Saiga doesn't
E) it's a shotgun

You asked "Why the Benelli M4 (or M1014, depending...) Hate?", so A-E, plus some more if I gave it enough thought, are my answers.

Awww you're just bitter.

I guess it's not for everyone. I think you probably saw some earlier M4's based on them having issues. Costa, etc. haven't had any problems with theirs in classes that I know of. To each their own, and thanks for your analysis!

[Dave Williams]

I began looking into the M4 after reading the thread on the Magpul shotgun class on TOS. The thread in question had so many pictures my computer can't even load them all.

As far as I can tell, the M4 that Mr Costa is using in that class would cost AT LEAST $2.5K to replicate. That may be the reason for alot of the M1014 hate.

The attached photo is from that thread, if it is not okay to attach it I will remove it.

Dave Williams

[WS6]

I did not look at the pic as the internet conenction I am at is not working well, but IIRC it has a col. stock and a T1 in an LT mount and maybe the ill-conceieved SF rail-system w/FUG on it.

THe rail+FUG are completely unneccessary, and the collapsible stock's main purpose is to allow the use of a reflex optic when on the middle notch.

The collapsible stock runs 7-1,000, the M4 around $1500, and the T1, around $650 with l/t mount.

In comparison, an LMT piston gun runs $2100, a TA31F runs $900, and Troy BUIS another $250.

I don't see them being poo-poo'ed based on price, mainly need vs. want.

[Dave Williams]

Why was the rail system ill-conceived?

Dave Williams