Why the Benelli M4 (or M1014, depending...) Hate?

[Failure2Stop]

Now, I think, since we have shared why we are not all that enthusiastic about the platform it is time for those that those that are to let us know what the Benelli M4 does better than other similarly priced auto-loading shotguns.

I ask this in all sincerity.

[WS6]

Why was the rail system ill-conceived?

Dave Williams

This thread will elaborte:
http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/show...t=Surefire+M80

[WS6]

Now, I think, since we have shared why we are not all that enthusiastic about the platform it is time for those that those that are to let us know what the Benelli M4 does better than other similarly priced auto-loading shotguns.

I ask this in all sincerity.

GOOD REQUEST!

Okay, why I like my M4S90 (keep in mind, I have only shot a 18" cyl. 870, a winchester 1500 20ga semi, and a wingmaster 870 in 20ga, and my 2 M4's, when it comes to shotguns.):

Reliability-- As long as I do my part (no firing wildly from the hip with target loads) my M4 has cycled. Both of them. Period. DOwn to 2.75 dram target loads, up to 3" 1oz slugs at almost 1800fps.

Durability--I know people who beat the snot out of theirs, don't clean at all save for adding oil (not cleaning) in over 5K rounds. Still running strong and no mis-fires (I clean my stuff, so I rely on them to test, lol). Also, after Benelli *86'ed the 4-port piston design, parts breakage became so rare that I have not heard of it. Period. I have NOT HEARD of someone breaking an M4 through non-accidental trama (bomb, dropping it in the path of a tank, etc.). I have never heard of a current manufacture M4S90 11707 breaking.

Simplicity--It is a simple design, easily cleaned, and nothing to adjust. I could candycane my mags with 2.75 dram STS target loads and 3" Magnum slugs, if I felt the need, and it would function.

Performance--WIth slugs, I get 3-4" groups standing offhand shooting at 50 yards. This is using a MOD Briley choke, another feature--interchangeable choke-tubes. With buckshot, it patterns VERY well. I can usually keep 100% of my pellets on target out to 50' (target being 14x14", the average human torso is considered 18" or so across.) with a good choke like the Briley. At 25 yards it keeps 80% on target, and others near-by. At 50 yards, I keep about 50% on target ( again, 14x14"). Then again, at 50 yards, it's slug time!

The M4 doesnt NEED upgrades. It comes with nice LPA sights, yeah, the collapsible stock is nice, and so is a FL mag tube, but the tube is $100-200 depending on which one you get, and anyone can install it in their garage with only a heat-gun. Much easier than needing to install LPA's or something.

Collapsible stock--Very cool. Basically a CDI factor unless you run optics, in which case it is all but necessary. ON the middle-section, it is PERFECT height for optics and a great cheek weld.

Benelli CS: I called them yesterday telling them I lost a small part (firing-pin retaining pin O-ring). They put one in the mail for me. No problem.

Okay, that about covers it:

Glock-like reliability.
Accuracy. (slugs were only 1.8" off from mechanical zero at 50 yards...not bad!)
Durability.
Ease of use.
Aftermarket accessory support is pretty good.
Benelli CS is stellar.

Ability to dump a LOT of energy into a target.

Also the survivalist factor. Long after 5.56 is unavailable, I will be able to waltz into wal-mart and buy plenty of 12ga. I can hunt birds, rabbits, deer, bear, any animal, large or small, in North America, and most in Africa, with an M4S90. This means Grizzle protection, if I move (considering Alaska when I graduate), right down to the copperheads we have here in Lousiana.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask me!

[johnnywitt]

I HAD 2 of them. I now have 0.
As a lifelong shotgunner, the M4 Benelli didn't work for me because it was a shotgun trying to be a Carbine. This is a problem because it didn't balance well and it wasn't fast and intuitive like a standard config shotgun, so I sold them for a handy profit. The M4 is also heavier than a regular Benelli because of the ARGO system ( a system that is only needed when you want to hang a lot of useless crap on your shotgun and try and turn it into a half assed carbine).
I disagree with some that say a shotgun is not effective for combat. There are people ( a lot of them in Texas due to extremely long bird seasons) that you definitely do not want to get sideways/tango with when they have a shotgun in their hands. I have a lot of trigger time on SMG's and the shotgun is what I would grab if dismounted. Nothing is faster to mount and shoot accurately if you are shooting a shotgun like a shotgun is meant to be shot- which is decidedly not like a carbine or rifle IMO.
I really like Benelli's and I've been shooting them hard since I bought my first one in 92 or 93. You just can't beat a Benelli allthough the newer ones don't have the same quality as the 90's guns. I like 870's too, but a Benelli M2 with a 21 or 24" BBL is hard to beat and somebody that shoots one a lot can reload pretty damn fast after years of practice. I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but most folks are just hell bent on trying to shoot a shotgun like a carbine by using PG, optics, slings, and slugs which negates any advantage a shotgun has as a close & medium range lightening fast weapon that shoots where you look (if it fits right).

[WS6]

I HAD 2 of them. I now have 0.
As a lifelong shotgunner, the M4 Benelli didn't work for me because it was a shotgun trying to be a Carbine. This is a problem because it didn't balance well and it wasn't fast and intuitive like a standard config shotgun, so I sold them for a handy profit. The M4 is also heavier than a regular Benelli because of the ARGO system ( a system that is only needed when you want to hang a lot of useless crap on your shotgun and try and turn it into a half assed carbine).
I disagree with some that say a shotgun is not effective for combat. There are people ( a lot of them in Texas due to extremely long bird seasons) that you definitely do not want to get sideways/tango with when they have a shotgun in their hands. I have a lot of trigger time on SMG's and the shotgun is what I would grab if dismounted. Nothing is faster to mount and shoot accurately if you are shooting a shotgun like a shotgun is meant to be shot- which is decidedly not like a carbine or rifle IMO.
I really like Benelli's and I've been shooting them hard since I bought my first one in 92 or 93. You just can't beat a Benelli allthough the newer ones don't have the same quality as the 90's guns. I like 870's too, but a Benelli M2 with a 21 or 24" BBL is hard to beat and somebody that shoots one a lot can reload pretty damn fast after years of practice. I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but most folks are just hell bent on trying to shoot a shotgun like a carbine by using PG, optics, slings, and slugs which negates any advantage a shotgun has as a close & medium range lightening fast weapon that shoots where you look (if it fits right).

Hrmmm, my M4 weghs a hair under 10oz more than the 18.5" M2 and holds 2 rounds more (3 if you count that the M2 can't ghost load unless modified, back to two I guess since we are talking modded weapons here). Has a collapsible stock which makes it easier to stow, and is VERY instinctive to shoot. Downed a pest bird with it the other day VERY naturally and quickly. Intuitively almost.

I guess if you are referring to a stock M4, they are kinda nose-heavy and weigh almost 8 pounds. Hence why people like me go and dick with things. To make them better.

I agree with your points when made about a stock M4 except with reguards to the gas system. It works wonderfully and will cycle light target loads held 1-handed. I do not think the ID system can do this. True, it was designed to have crap hung all over it, but I use it because it is ultra-reliable even without crap all over it.

[johnnywitt]

Hrmmm, my M4 weghs a hair under 10oz more than the 18.5" M2 and holds 2 rounds more (3 if you count that the M2 can't ghost load unless modified, back to two I guess since we are talking modded weapons here). Has a collapsible stock which makes it easier to stow, and is VERY instinctive to shoot. Downed a pest bird with it the other day VERY naturally and quickly. Intuitively almost.

I guess if you are referring to a stock M4, they are kinda nose-heavy and weigh almost 8 pounds. Hence why people like me go and dick with things. To make them better.

I agree with your points when made about a stock M4 except with reguards to the gas system. It works wonderfully and will cycle light target loads held 1-handed. I do not think the ID system can do this. True, it was designed to have crap hung all over it, but I use it because it is ultra-reliable even without crap all over it.

Both of mine would run 1oz loads consistantly and the one would even cycle 7/8oz loads. They are a reliable and very well made weapon in my experience.
Different strokes... Biggest thing for me was a PG. I know about the "field stock" and actually had one. I think that I bought one of the last ones. Benelli supposedly discontinued them. I think Mann & Sons might still have one or two if anybody needs one.

[Alaskapopo]

Reasons I find it sub-optimal-

Collapsable stock that does not adjust. When in body-armor the stock is too long, and when collapsed it is too short to use.

Non intuitive manual of arms. While common to other semi-auto shotguns I am sure somebody could simplify and streamline the controls. They are also not fun when going lefty. The pistol grip is unnecessary and adds a snag-hazard when in tight confines with the shotty slung. The gun is also pretty long, which makes it difficult to maneuver and position in close confines.

The inertia requirement of the operating system makes it unacceptable for military breaching applications as the system will not reliably cycle unless there is a shoulder planted behind the stock. Breaching is my primary application of the shotgun, and pumps just work better than the 1014 for my primary application.

The only place there is a rail is on the top of the receiver. A lot of people seem to want to have a shotgun fill a carbine role, and while this is dumb for a number of reasons, it is pretty much impossible since the 1014 lacks attachment points for simple requirements such as IR devices and white lights. Sure, you can still use it in the day, but even when the sun is up, there are a lot of places inside enclosures that need to be illuminated by the user for a whole lot of reasons.

The 1014 does not work with many of our non-lethal rounds. While I don't really care much about non-lethal, the ability to select different rounds it often touted as a benefit to shotgun use, and one that the 1014 fails to meet.

The effective range of shotguns with slug is often advertised at 100 to 150 meters. While an average user can hit a torso reliably at 100 meters with rifled slugs, with an M4 the user can usually tell you which eye they hit.

The over-confidence in the "stopping power" of the 12 gauge. Sure, when all is said and done, the 12 puts pretty big holes in things- but there are lots of people running around who at one point had a big hole put through them. There is no magic bullet, even if it says "12 ga" on it. While the choice to provide MPs with the 1014 is probably pretty good, as it will do what they need it to do at the distances relevant to their job, it is not all that handy for most other shotgun users.

Different strokes for different folks. I will not own a combat shotgun without a pistol grip. I find it makes the gun easier to shoot and I have yet to have a snag issue with pistol grips on my patrol rifle or my 870 and both have pistol grips. I have been using them for 9 years now. I think that issue is overstated. You can get all kinds of rail mounts for the Benelli M4. You need to look around. I agree however that the shotgun takes a back seat to the patrol rifle for everything but breaching, animal control (killing bear moose ect) and less lethal on humans. My Benelli M4 is a fun gun for three gun. However if I could not have a rifle on patrol I would much rather have my Benelli M4 than my 870.

Pat

[WS6]

Different strokes for different folks. I will not own a combat shotgun without a pistol grip. I find it makes the gun easier to shoot and I have yet to have a snag issue with pistol grips on my patrol rifle or my 870 and both have pistol grips. I have been using them for 9 years now. I think that issue is overstated. You can get all kinds of rail mounts for the Benelli M4. You need to look around. I agree however that the shotgun takes a back seat to the patrol rifle for everything but breaching, animal control (killing bear moose ect) and less lethal on humans. My Benelli M4 is a fun gun for three gun. However if I could not have a rifle on patrol I would much rather have my Benelli M4 than my 870.

Pat

I am waiting for someone to make a PROPER rail for the M4 that:

Does not rub on the pistons and cause FTF's (SF M80)
Will not allow hot gas to hit your hands (B&T)
Has a PROPER 1913 rail that wil allow the use of LT mounts.

I agree that there ARE a lot of rails, but there are none which meet my criteria. I also am confident that there WILL be some on the market in the not TOO distant future.

[wicked_police]

I just picked up an M4 Super 90 on trade. Thought it would be fun to try out.

How do I know what 'generation' it is as far as the comments and posts above?

Thanks!

wp

[WS6]

I just picked up an M4 Super 90 on trade. Thought it would be fun to try out.

How do I know what 'generation' it is as far as the comments and posts above?

Thanks!

wp

See if it is a 2 or 4 port barrel, see how many notches are on the recoil tube. 2-port and 3 notches for adjustment = 11707.