My thoughts on DA/SA, LEM etc...

[seang]

I started my LE career carrying a Sig, then glock and now M&P.
For the last year or so I have started to believe a longer trigger pull is preferable for law enforcement. If not a longer trigger pull than at least a hammer that can be seen/felt.

I recently attended a 5 day handgun instructor school and this reaffirmed my beliefs. No, there weren't any anti-glock people. In fact the instructors were all glock fans. We had several Glock 21's, 2 glock 22, Sig 226 da/sa .40, Wilson Combat CQB 45, 3 Kimber .45s and a M&P 45. All the guns seemed to run well. The Kimbers were issued and were series 2. Apparently they were issued some other series 2 models and had major problems. Kimber was unresponsive and finally they had to talk to the head of Kimber to get anything done, as they were ignored at first. The new guns have worked well.

Not because anyone screwed up did I get these beliefs. With all the different drills we did over 5 days and all the possible scenarios we went through, I guess I would rather have another deputy/officer with a longer trigger pull for the first shot or a hammer that can be seen, felt, when reholstering. I really liked putting the thumb on the back of the slide, hammer, when coming back to the ready position before reholstering. I shot a glock 22 and the M&P .40, so no hammer, but I still put my thumb on the back of the slide to ensure it was forward, as most of you train to do, I"m sure.

Everyone in the class seemed to do good, but these are people who wanted be there and shoot. Most deputies at my department aren't enthusiastic shooters and I think it's probably the same at most.

No, I'm not suggesting DAO (Sig, S&W, etc,)for everyone. I just don't know if the glock type trigger is best for most officers, just because it's easiest to shoot. Don't get me wrong, I think glock has one of the best triggers, but given the stressful situations that officers can be in and the tendency for fingers to sometimes go in trigger guards, I would prefer to give law enforcement a gun with the same trigger pull every time, but with a longer pull. I think the LEM may be that. No I haven't seen a finger go inside the trigger guard myself.

I understand the argument that your not supposed to have your finger inside the trigger guard unless your going to shoot someone. I follow that rule, but can I guarantee law enforcement officers from every agency I am working with is going to follow that, nope. I know some will argue that officers shooting da/sa forget to decock their firearms and have shot people or themselves on accident. I have also heard the valid argument that shooting goes to hell in stressful situations and you want an easy to operate/shoot gun in times like those. That is also hard to argue with. This is why I think the LEM might be a really good option for law enforcement.

I haven't shot a da/sa for quite awhile now and shot out the center of the target with a Sig 220R, easy to do at 7 and 15 yards, I know. This was slow and rapid fire. This affirms my belief that da/sa aren't as difficult to shoot as some would like us to believe. I did this after shooting the P30 LEM. If you really hit home on decocking and transition from the da/sa trigger pull, I think the da/sa is still a good choice for le/ccw. I do think da/sa is on the way out the door now, unfortunately, and trigger pulls like the LEM are a worth consideration.

I believe I read once where Ernest Langdon said a gun easy to shoot on purpose is also a gun easier to shoot unintentionally. Something like that anyway. He was referring to training a Swat team in an article and stated how these highly trained swat guys still put their fingers on the trigger during stressful training drills. Given the situations that many LE are in, I think the DA/SA, LEM, maybe DAK is worth serious consideration, for law enforcement. Some of the systems may seem to take more work, but it may be worth it.

If I were to have to make the decision to arm a department with a gun, I would pick an issued weapon and allow the option to carry a personally owned firearm. Yes, I would allow glocks, M&P's, but I would choose the LEM or Da/Sa for issue and allow the option for others.

My beliefs are more geared for law enforcement than civilians.

Just my random thoughts.

Oh, and I still think the Glock 17 is one of the best guns made.

Edited to add Langdon comment on Swat team. And I'm not saying the glock or M&P aren't great or shouldn't be issued, just curious as to what others think as my thinking has somewhat changed over time.

[Ian111]

I tend to think if that trigger finger is riding that trigger and if the person is under stress that person is gonna yank that trigger. I don't think it matters whether the trigger is 12 lbs or 4.5 lbs. The person's focus is completely somewhere else and under stress they're going to "squeeze". I don't think its good to encourage people to accept that having your trigger finger on the trigger can be ok (even if it happens "often") just because a pistol has a heavier trigger.

The only solution is drilling people to index the weapon til its second nature. Just like using the brake and accelerator on a car. Cars don't have safeties or heavy accelerators but we operate them "safely" everyday without running people over. The trigger is the "accelerator" and the side of the pistol's frame or slide is the "brake". We must encourage proper mindset instead of constantly trying to create a "safer" gun which can only encourage us to be more passive.

IMHO

[seang]

I agree it's not okay and I wouldn't train anyone to think it's okay. I don't believe having a longer trigger pull means you can cut safety out of training or take shortcuts. I hope that's not what I conveyed in my message. I wouldn't teach any different with a Sig da/sa or a glock, besides adding the decocking into the training.

I agree mindset matters, and I think we have to get people in the proper mindset to understand that da/sa, lem are as shootable as other trigger systems, they might take more patience.

I agree it's not the weight at all, it's the length of the pull that matters.

It just seems to me that so many agencies have gone the glock or m&P route because they are easier to teach. Is this being done because they think it's the best system for their officers or because it's easier for them to teach which = less work. That might not be the best reasoning if it's for the latter.

I wouldn't eliminate the 1911 from use either, since you have a hammer you can feel/see and a safety you can feel/see. Of course I think to carry a 1911 you need to really understand/use the system.

[sigmundsauer]

Sean, I couldn't agree more. Well said.

Ian, I may get blasted for this, but I am of the opinion that the finger off the trigger rule is critical for all guns except full weight DA pistols.

10-12 pounds drawn over 3/4 of an inch stroke or so doesn't happen by accident. It takes a deliberate and conscience decision to do so. If an ND occurred under such conditions I'd be very, very suspicious if there weren't more to the story, like the operator had the trigger prepped, etc.

I believe proper manipulation of DA triggers depend highly on correct trigger finger position. Maybe it's because of my smallish hands, but I simply cannot achieve proper placement of my trigger finger on traditional DA guns unless I do it as I am establishing the master grip, usually coming out of the holster. For most pistols if I establish my master grip and then index the finger on the frame, it will not be right. Or, if I establish my proper grip and then come off the trigger and index to the frame my trigger finger will not find a proper home. This is not true of all pistols, but it is true for most of the DA/SA guns in my inventory. I think the finger-on-trigger prohibition largely stems from those accustomed to SA guns, like the 1911, an AR, or even a Glock (yes, it is an SA gun, imo), where shots can be triggered nearly instantly where much less weight and distance can be overcome swiftly. Full length and weight triggers like on a traditional SIG or DA revolver, I am comfortable with keeping my finger on the trigger (but I do not prep the trigger). We're not talking range etiquette here, I am talking reality. However, this is what works for me, and I don't suggest it for others necessarily. I realize I am in a very small minority here, and will likely get flamed for stating my opinion. Oh well. Real people get flagged with muzzles all the time in the real world, violating the other golden rule, but it is the reality of certain professions, and is managed safely among skilled operators.

A light DAO gun like the LEM or DAK shifts my opinion back to the golden rule, as far less leverage must be achieved to manage proper trigger manipulation. They both have the advantage of long trigger travel, which in itself is inherently safe, but the lighter weight makes prepositioning less necessary, if at all.

I still think an excellent DA/SA gun with a useable decocker, like the SIG P-series or HK P30/P2000 is still a very shootable gun. I personally prefer the LEM, and would likewise favor it as a mass-issue trigger system as well. A light DAO gun like the LEM, makes

Tim

[joe138]

I started my career with a P226,P220, G22, 1911 and now G17. The only ND's that occurred on the Dept. were with the Sig's. While it is true that these were training issues, there have not been any since the Glocks were adopted. I believe that relying on the long DA trigger pull for safety is a giant problem. No matter what platform is used, the finger should always be out of the trigger guard, even if there is a manual safety. I have always been taught this, no matter what the venue. Just my thoughts and what I require from my Officers.

[seang]

Again, I wouldn't rely on the DA pull alone for safety. Not sure if your just stating it or you got that from my comments. I just think it's an additional measure of safety to have the longer trigger pull. I would hope any department would teach the trigger finger should be off the trigger and outside the trigger guard when not firing. We taught this with our S&W 4506 and do with the M&P. Nothing has changed in our training, except no decocking now. I don't think having a manual safety changes the "finger off the trigger until ready to shoot" rule either.

Interesting on the ND's. I take it the ND were with officers not decocking?

[joe138]

I was present at one, it was a finger on the trigger problem with a P220. The others were decocking issues. I hope that no one would rely on the DA pull for safety.

[sigmundsauer]

Again, I wouldn't rely on the DA pull alone for safety. Not sure if your just stating it or you got that from my comments. I just think it's an additional measure of safety to have the longer trigger pull. I would hope any department would teach the trigger finger should be off the trigger and outside the trigger guard when not firing. We taught this with our S&W 4506 and do with the M&P. Nothing has changed in our training, except no decocking now. I don't think having a manual safety changes the "finger off the trigger until ready to shoot" rule either.

Interesting on the ND's. I take it the ND were with officers not decocking?

Sean, I wasn't suggesting that's what you said. I drafted my comments before your second response...but you beat me to the post.

Tim

[sigmundsauer]

I hope that no one would rely on the DA pull for safety.

Wise advice. However, people do, including myself. Some inadvertently, others ignorantly, and others yet, deliberately, like me. I believe it to be acceptably safe in my hands, but I feel my experience validates it, as it may not for others, so I don't recommend it or teach it.

Like many things in my profession, safety is balanced with effectiveness, and this is a practice I use exclusively on my SIG M11 and Beretta M9 under very specific conditions, not as a routine habit. I won't argue its merit except to say that I feel it is sufficiently safe and is compatible only with traditional, heavy DA triggers. I accept the vast majority will disagree with me, however many have been fleeced if they refuse to believe that soldiers and officers routinely do this. With Glocks and 1911 and such, I'd be very concerned. With a 12-lb Beretta or SIG in experienced hands, I have come to accept that it happens.

To steer this thread back onto topic, this is just another reason why I feel HK's LEM is among the most useable and safe trigger systems available on a duty pistol. It represents an ideal balance between shootability and inherent safety.

Tim

[seang]

Sigmund,

Not a problem. I wasn't actually referring to your post. I think for the most part we are saying the same thing. People can talk about training to keep fingers off triggers all they want, but it doesn't change the fact that it still happens. I don't know of anyone who would suggest shortcuts in training or less training because of longer or heavier trigger pulls. Of course you still train with the same safety rules.