Soldiers in Iraq learning to use guns

[Dport]

What is interesting is Navy personnel deploying to support the Army must complete safety and familiarization training prior to showing up to Army training centers, and then they must qualify on Army ranges before deploying. This is in addition to any Navy training, bootcamp, yearly firearms qualifications, semi-annual familiarizations they had in the Navy. And do you know what?

There are some that still look like monkeys ****ing a football. If I could send all my Sailors to train with Mr. Vickers and Mr. Rodgers, I would. However, there would still be a good number who wouldn't get it.

[Harv]

Originally Posted by JBar
That is the result of only sending your support soldiers to the range once a year to "qualify" with their weapon because you don't have the budget to purchase the overpriced ammo.

There is your answer right there... that and a big leadership gap at the NCO level.

The term Pouge was created for a reason... this is an example.

I Ran enough small arms ranges in my career to know that this does not shock me at all.
Anyone ever spent an afternoon on the M16 range trying to get a bunch of male and female Medics to qualify with there M16's???. And watch them struggle to do something basic like apply a BZO??? or confirm a BZO without using 500 rds each...



After watching this.. it should clearly explain how the whole Jessica Lynch Convoy debacle unfolded and how everyone raced to field a new Issued weapon that you don't need to clean.

Just goes to show you.. just cause someone served in the Mil does not make them a small arms expert ,except on the internet.....

[Treehopr]

There is your answer right there... that and a big leadership gap at the NCO level.

The term Pouge was created for a reason... this is an example.

I Ran enough small arms ranges in my career to know that this does not shock me at all.
Anyone ever spent an afternoon on the M16 range trying to get a bunch of male and female Medics to qualify with there M16's???. And watch them struggle to do something basic like apply a BZO??? or confirm a BZO without using 500 rds each...



After watching this.. it should clearly explain how the whole Jessica Lynch Convoy debacle unfolded and how everyone raced to field a new Issued weapon that you don't need to clean.

Just goes to show you.. just cause someone served in the Mil does not make them a small arms expert ,except on the internet.....

A few points:

Overpriced ammo? .gov and .mil customers probably get the best price of anybody- they get to buy in bulk and tax free

And not having enough in the budget is usually over the head of those attempting to implement the training. I know of no unit that has ever said they had too much ammo or too much money in their budget. I have been in units where they hoarded everything until the end of the fiscal year and sent everybody out in September to shoot it all off with no redeeming training value so they would get the same amount budgeted for the next year

Re: Medics- yes I have. I've also had to load an M16 for an E6 because she couldn't figure out how to do it prior to our LD for a convoy to the green zone. Lack of training in weapons goes beyond just putting rounds on target- I'd be happy with muzzle discipline and keeping the finger off the trigger.

Part of it is the trainee but I think part of it is who conducts the training. This is not directed against anyone but the easiest thing for a poor instructor to do is blame the student. I've been on ranges where it was pretty obvious the person doing the training was there because somebody else had to get rid of them- so instead of screwing up a squad or platoon they get to screw up the whole battalion. I've never been to an M16 range where they didn't beat SPORTS to death. Why? Because it's all the instructor knows and it's the only thing in his lesson plan. If all you have is a hammer than all your problems look like nails...

Re: the convoy- I think a lot of people on the internet make an issue of the weapons maintenance as if perfectly cleaned and lubed weapons would've resulted in a different outcome. IMO- if the convoy commander had spent more time on route selection/land nav and made better decisions before being ambushed it would've done a lot more than any amount of CLP would have. Note that most of the WO/NCO's were taken out of the fight in the initial attack. I think any unit would have a hard time with a convoy ambush at night against a numerically superior force while behind enemy lines. IIRC- there were 2 silver stars awarded for that action. Clearly there were some soldiers in the convoy who were able to overcome their equipment/training shortcomings.

I agree with the other posts regarding the annual qualification. It would be better if the annual spent more time on such things as marsksmanship. Then add a predeployment prep class for non-standard weapons familiarization and tactics.

FJB- thanks for posting the link to the video- good discussion.

[METT-T]

There is no excuse for this five years into a war.

Jbar

I say that more and more lately.

Seems to me that the Army-and the rest of DoD-suffered greatly during the 1990's. You can knock the culture out of an Army real quick but it takes a good long while to build it back up.

Of course, what the hell do I know, it's probably always been this bad.