GPS System Close to Breakdown?

[chadbag]

My belief is that GPS is not a good choice for wilderness navigation... it works well for open water and flight nav, and in locations where the routing for roads has already been figured; but, off the beaten path, I'll take a good topo anytime, remember, the GPS will walk you off a cliff if you let it.

I am not an expert on GPS. Having said that, I have friends who use GPS for wilderness hunting etc. They consider them invaluable. They do not necessarily replace the compass and topo, but augment them. We are not talking the auto navigation units, but hiking and outdoors ones that have topo maps built in that can be used to keep track of where you are going. You can get waymarks as you go that will remember your location so when you return you can use the GPS to help you get out on the same path you went in. Obviously, common sense needs to be used in combination with this sort of technology.

[Smuckatelli]

Need to be the spoiler here.

Once they got all of the satelittes in orbit, problems in the wilderness or built up areas pretty much went away. You need 4 satelittes to get an accurate fix including elevation. 3 satelittes will give you an accurate horizontal position. There is a higher probability of walking off a cliff with a compass using dead reckoning at night or limited visibility than with a GPS receiver.

With a GPS, you get your fix and azimuth and go, it doesn't have to be turned on. You don't have to reshoot azimuths do resections or intersections, that is all done by the receiver.

In other words, you can focus on your mission at hand, you don't have distractors. Working as a team, it's good to go that one person is tagged as the navigator/compassman/paceman. As a team, others are covering sectors and keeping situational awareness of the "terrain." As an individual, running those duties will take away from you primary focus.

Navigating with a GPS is the same as navigating with a compass and map. Using defined terrain limited features (usually linear) helps take out the passman requirement, same goes with the GPS, terrain limiting features are used so that you don't have to keep the reciever in your hand where your weapon is, there is also a reason why the compassman usually his weapon when navigating.

In 21 years of service, I've owned more compasses than combat boots....I'm anal about navigation. I'm also leveraging technology whenever possible.

[K.L. Davis]

Sure... GPS is cool, I have said many, many times that "I don't know how I lived without it" -- but I did, lived with OMEGA, LORAN, GNSS/GPS/DGPS and holding on for eLORAN.

Still, in every real field trial that I have seen... where experienced and well trained teams went up against each other; one team fitted with only hand held GPS and the other with only a Topo and a Compass... the later was always quicker and had less course deviation.

I agree completely with leveraging technology... I have spent a lot of time stomping my little combat boot and telling Uncle Sugar to cut loose with some cheddar and equip the troops -- but I am also the first to champion the idea that technology is not an inherent replacement for anything.

But like has already been said, most folks tend to use a handheld receiver as sort of a fancy compass, it does the hard part and points them in the right direction, then they usually reference a topo map, get a terrain reference, find some lateral features or guides, set a backstop and head off... when it is in your pocket, it could be a GPS, a Lensatic Compass or Schroedinger's Cat -- but given my druthers, if I can pick only one, it will still be the *old school* map and compass.

[Smuckatelli]

I'll repost later, my 5 year old decided to hit the post button before I finished

[Smuckatelli]

Sure... GPS is cool

It seems that many of the anti GPS crowd is anti because they don't fully understand the capabilities of the tech. This is pretty much the norm throughout history. From guns replacing the sword to automobiles replacing the horse. Some of the concerns that have been voiced here, were concerns back in 1990 when the first widespread use occurred during DS/DS in Kuwait. When I returned from DS, the first thing that I did was take out a small business loan and purchased a Magellan 1000 for $3500.00 USD. The reason for that expenditure was because for the first time in my life I did not have access to a map. The maps that they issued to us were a mix of roadmaps, tourist maps, and 1:100,000 DMA products. A lot of things happen between contour lines that even 1:10,000 maps don't pick up.

I have said many, many times that "I don't know how I lived without it" -- but I did, lived with OMEGA, LORAN, GNSS/GPS/DGPS and holding on for eLORAN.

The same can be said about anything and almost everything that we own. You could replace the nav aids that you liswith cars, boats, guns........

Still, in every real field trial that I have seen... where experienced and well trained teams went up against each other; one team fitted with only hand held GPS and the other with only a Topo and a Compass... the later was always quicker and had less course deviation.

The 'less deviation' leads me to think that this was a compass couse using the ole ammo can posts

If so than depending on the KSAs of the GPS operator, the compass and topo team will be quicker than the GPS bubbas. It's kinda like shooting 1000yds with a carbine, is it possible, yes for some but the chance of being successful increases with the length of the barrel.

There are somethings that a map and compass will never be faster at; location identification. Running a hip shoot with 81s while on the move, getting the initial location for the company once all boats have left the ship to begin your 20 mile run to the BLS. Running multiple fire missions with multiple platforms while on the move.

I agree completely with leveraging technology... I have spent a lot of time stomping my little combat boot and telling Uncle Sugar to cut loose with some cheddar and equip the troops -- but I am also the first to champion the idea that technology is not an inherent replacement for anything..

Me thinks you have the wrong idea about the GPS. It was never designed to replace the map and compass.

But like has already been said, most folks tend to use a handheld receiver as sort of a fancy compass, it does the hard part and points them in the right direction, then they usually reference a topo map, get a terrain reference, find some lateral features or guides, set a backstop and head off... when it is in your pocket, it could be a GPS, a Lensatic Compass or Schroedinger's Cat -- but given my druthers, if I can pick only one, it will still be the *old school* map and compass.

Here's an interesting result of the proliferation of GPS receivers; Topo maps are becoming way more accurate. The map makers are being held to a higher standard now because of how accurate these devces are.

Hell, even your location, you list the map datum.

[K.L. Davis]

It seems that...

All very valid points, and given the situations that you present, I agree... I have called for fire using a topo and orientation, as well as ran an aiming circle; neither is a replacement for Aegis.

However, this forum is about survival and fieldcraft and it seems the discussion was about individual preparedness for navigation without GNSS...

insert some cliche "off course" pun here

[Smuckatelli]

However, this forum is about survival and fieldcraft and it seems the discussion was about individual preparedness for navigation without GNSS...

insert some cliche "off course" pun here

I'm tracking brother

The initial post with a link and no thoughts/comment pretty much left the door open as to how GPS Systems impact could aid or hinder preparedness.

I only opened my suck because the wilderness LOS and leading off a cliff were accurate in the early 90s but the stuff out there now is a hell of a lot more capable.

FWIW; The first belt loop my 7 year old earned in cub Scouts was the Map & Compass.......my azimuth is okay, just didn't want the old school thoughts to limit people's choices.

I'm not a techno-geek.....I still have two stock Colts, no intent to put extra gear on them until the family becomes proficeint with the iron sights.

[Smuckatelli]

I have called for fire using a topo and orientation, as well as ran an aiming circle; neither is a replacement for Aegis.

What's Aegis?

[K.L. Davis]

Aegis Combat System

[Smuckatelli]

Aegis Combat System

Okay...you threw me for a loop there. I don't see the segue between Aegis, aiming circles, topo maps, and orientation.