It's a mindset issue when ...

[Pat_Rogers]

"If their profession was a criteria for getting into a class there would be VERY few classes and that would suck."


So true....
I prefer doing agency/ unit classes overall because the admin burden is less; and SOP is in place; and people are working off the same sheet of music.
The people have same/ similar weapons, support equipment and ammunition.

However, i enjoy the civilians in my open classes because i get to see/ experience a whole lot of gear/guns that i might not see (and fill my book with new and exciting images of guns/ gear failing...), and interact with some great and motivated people.
The other advantage in the open classes is that average earth people get to interact- on and off the range- with cops, military and others that they may not ordinarily deal with. It works the other way around as well.
Additionally, cops/ mil/ other real guys have the opportunity to interact with each other, which means solid info transfer and invaluable contacts down the line.

I have said this many times before. I don't care what you bring as long as it is serviceable.
There were people in the last class that wore vests and ran the mags out of pockets. It is a lot slower and there is a lot of fumbling involved, but that is your choice.
I believe that people need to be grounded in basics- especially in weapons handling. The Carbine Operator's Course is my basic course but i expect people to have a clear understanding as to basic safety, shooting and manipulative skills. The rest we can work on.
Any 3-5 day class is not sufficient to make you the gunfighter from hell- it is only an introduction, and regular sustainment training is necessary.
However, the gear part of this is not rocket science, and can be worked out at home during Dry Practice.
An example: attend a class and use a chest rig or subload and dump pouch. The lessons learned in loading/ reloading, positions, transitions and movement are a lot easier.
During your dry practice (after the class) you can experiment with your trousers/ vest de jour. Knowing where/ how magazines need to be manipulated will give you some direction as to how to sort your gear out so as to ensure maximum efficiency. You also need to ensure that what you have in those large pockets won't depart when you are moving or assuming positions.
At class it is just feeding the range chickens. For real, you have an empty gun...

Now a dose of reality. If you believe that in the middle of the night, when your home is being invaded, you will be able to grab a weapon, throw a ballistic vest over your head, run down the hallway, grab your child and shield her with your body while shouting orders to your spouse/ older kids etc, you are on crack.
Waking up sufficiently to do most anything is difficult for many, especially those that have never had to do it.
Grabbing extra ammo in a carrier etc may be a luxury only if time permits, and we all know how much time you have in a gunfight.

Realistically, the only ammunition that you are going to have with you in a middle of the night scenario is what you have in and on the gun- be this a Redi Mag or a stock pouch.

I can tell you that the experience of one is insufficient to make a spec on a statistical table. However, i was involved in exactly this type of situation a long time ago. I grabbed the only weapon i had available (an M1 Carbine) and the only ammunition i had was the 45 rds in/ on the gun. There was absolutely no time to access anything else.
Everyday you make choices based on priorities. That "How do we eat an elephant" thing. The first priority in a gunfight is to have a gun. Getting murdered while you are tring to put on your secret squirrel contingency vest may be counter productive.

During a natural disaster such as Katrina, or the next religious inspired calamity when smelly bearded men turn a population center into a smoking hole in the ground you may have sufficient warning (in the case of the former) and sufficient time after the event in the latter to prepare for the potential of follow on attacks by the turds of society. If you have that time, then the vest, ammo etc will be an issue.

The world is not- in most cases- black and white. It is shades of grey.
Get used to it.

[mactastic]

Going to an IDPA match with all the tacticool gear is a not a bad thing. It's funny, but not bad.

It's when someone goes to a match with every cool guy piece of gear but no proficiency or skill set that is bad.

Wear what you want but let your shooting do the talking (if you can).

I am very interested to know what exactly that shooter did to those 3 weapons that made them each go down like that. So I have to pause for a minute before I call him a moron. Yes probably a very short pause.

[ToddG]

[HolyRoller]

How about this:

In class, wear what you work with if possible, but above all, use what you need to let you go with the flow and not hold everybody else up.

The other 355 days of the year when you're not in class, train with what you use. That's what class is really for anyway--giving you the tools to work toward perfection on your own.

In both LAV classes so far, I've worn my duty belt with the standard two pistol mag pouches, and a rifle mag pouch in place of the radio, and got along all right, although I had to jam mags at every opportunity. At the AK class I had my plate carrier complete with Level IV plates and three rifle mags and two more pistol mags ready to go, only to hear first thing that on such a blazing hot day, all that extra stuff was just inviting a heat casualty, so the carrier stayed in the trunk. Our top shooter in the AK class was an infantry officer who, if I recall correctly, said it was generally a good idea not to wear EVERYthing; instead, download all but what you need for the exercise, so you can concentrate on what you're learning. But he also said that when he suggested this to other Army guys, "it was like I'd said you should wipe your butt with a picture of the Virgin Mary," so others may think different.

[Rmplstlskn]

Now a dose of reality. If you believe that in the middle of the night, when your home is being invaded, you will be able to grab a weapon, throw a ballistic vest over your head, run down the hallway, grab your child and shield her with your body while shouting orders to your spouse/ older kids etc, you are on crack.

Excellent post, excellent topic! It has slapped my "tacti-cool" tendencies back into check... These forums and all the cool gear here tend to do that to most any red-blooded, meat-eating male I assume... I'm guilty...

MY REALITY is that anything having to do with an AR (or any long gun) is in fact, ROLE PLAYING the improbable hypothetical. My LOADED AR's, FAL and other long guns are in a SAFE two rooms away from the bedroom. I have a quality PISTOL (.40 XD) with a mounted LIGHT and two extra mags to get me to my safe, if needed. But my home is small, hallways are tight, so this pistol is probably what I will live or die by IN THE REAL WORLD...

The Chest Rig and other gear for me is two-fold: First, it allows me to have QUALITY GEAR for those events randomly occurring throughout humanity's existence where being MARTIALLY PREPARED may be the difference between life or death (Katrina-type natural disaster, societal decay, terrorism, etc...). At a minimum, it adds a DETERRENT QUOTIENT by "looking like a bad-a$$" to the huddled masses, like that evil BAYONET.

Secondly, it allows me to have plenty of what I need (ammo, hydration bladder, dump pouch, etc...) during TRAINING without being in full-blown combat gear, of which I do not own, need, nor have the funds to acquire. It also allows me to hang out on the line and participate more fully, both during training or casual shoots with friends.

But I do admit the "tacti-cool" bug biting me on more than one occassion... even if what I acquire is top-notch, battle-proven gear (researched from sites like this one) and QUALITY weaponry from "Tier 1" manufacturers rather than AIRSOFT poser-wear or sub-par arms manufacturers (you know who they are... see chart ). It is still WANNA_BE gear for me... unless some kind of SHTF event occurs.

Again, excellent thread! One of the best in awhile...

BTW, I too would like to know what "add-ons" or mods caused TWO M1A's and the almost fool-proof AK to go down HARD...

As for MINDSET, I would penalize the "three guns down" guy more for NOT LEARNING from this experience rather than the initial "wake up call" he got from two weapon platforms KNOWN to be reliable battle-proven designs. We just don't have enough info on this guy and the class to just wipe him off as a ninja-buffoon... As one person said, "At least he was getting training..." What he does with it now is the true MINDSET question.

Rmpl

[aloharover]

You see the guy with the Dremel set has more knowledge than the dozens of designers.

Now there is a quote