It's a mindset issue when ...

[rob_s]

People are more focused on gear than on learning how to fight.

I agree, but I also think you have to have the gear squared away in order to learn how to fight. I've seen it in training and in competition, when someone's rifle goes down, 9 out of 10 times they completly stop what they're doing and all of their attention goes to the gun. All too often, in the case of cometitions, the first thing out of their mouth is "reshoot". There are no reshoots in real life.

With that said, you are also absolutely right that some people just want to play dress-up and, as Pat Rogers has said, attend an "Outward Bound with guns". I have no issue with these people, except to say that "that guy" in class is often from this group.

[USMC03]

you have to have the gear squared away in order to learn how to fight.

Agreed. As men much smarter than I have said "Fight your enemy, not your gear".


When a guy shows up to class with 3 guns and all of them go tits up, he's probably more interested in "talking about cool guy gear" than learning how to efficiently run the gear that he has so he can fight more effectively.

[mark5pt56]

Dang Jeff, really good info for a sticky?

Add these three simple things in

"Does it work"
"Is it neccessary"
"Can you duplicate it under stress"

I've lost count of the number of times cell phones, pagers and pepper spray have been used as spare mags--

Mark

[Pat_Rogers]

Agreed. As men much smarter than I have said "Fight your enemy, not your gear".


When a guy shows up to class with 3 guns and all of them go tits up, he's probably more interested in "talking about cool guy gear" than learning how to efficiently run the gear that he has so he can fight more effectively.

That was from Jonny Laplume, a true national assest when it comes to gear, and the reason why shooters in some organizations have what they have.
I started quoting him several years ago in oder to emphasize a point.

Re 3 guns pooping the sheets.
There are- unfortunately- agreat number of people who have more money than common sense, and who should never ever be allowed to look at (never mind own- a gun.
I used to see these by the bushel when i worked at a place in the high desert. We sometimes would get 5-6 people who were "That Guy".
I don't see too many any more.
I used to be nice to them, but not any more. You have to be responsible for your actions (whatever they may be) and if you can't be trusted to bring one working gun to class, with working ammo, working magazines and the like (especially after you have been advised about this), there is no reason to destroy the entire class with your stupidity.
Guns break- they are wear items. But 3 not working at the same time?? That is a brain problem.
Note that i said nothing about ability. We can teach people to perform certain skill sets. But how do you teach people who show up with bad attitudes or common sense issues.

[Chris_C]

Dang Jeff, really good info for a sticky?

Add these three simple things in

"Does it work"
"Is it neccessary"
"Can you duplicate it under stress"

I've lost count of the number of times cell phones, pagers and pepper spray have been used as spare mags--

Mark

That is something I would pay to see.

When I compete with my AR, all I use are my irons, no co-witness, nothing else, just irons. Its the way I was taught by a PMI with the M16 platform in 1990.

[rob_s]

I've lost count of the number of times cell phones, pagers and pepper spray have been used as spare mags--

Yep, as an IDPA SO I've seen the same thing. The quizical look on their face as they realize what's in their hand is priceless. Hopefully the generous ribbing by the rest of the squad also ensures they don't forget the lesson.

[Jay Cunningham]

I think that common sense must strongly apply in all cases, including training.

"Train like you will fight" can be taken too literally and to an extreme. If you are standing on the line with just jeans and a T-shirt with a spare mag in your back pocket you will most likely hold up the class.

Will you really be wearing a ballcap, collared shirt, ear and eye pro in a real situation?

My opinion about training is to get the most out of it. If a dump pouch and other gear will help you focus on what you are being taught then I say GTG.

OTOH, gear for the sake of gear is just playing Barbie. Once again, common sense must always apply.

[rob_s]

"Train like you will fight" can be taken too literally and to an extreme. If you are standing on the line with just jeans and a T-shirt with a spare mag in your back pocket you will most likely hold up the class.

I wore jeans and a t-shirt all through the Pat Rogers class. Is there a clothing issue that I'm missing?

Will you really be wearing a ballcap, collared shirt, ear and eye pro in a real situation?

There is a distinction between safety gear and muscle memory. From what I have read and heard relayed to me (having never been in a gunfight myself), you don't notice the brass burning you or the ringing in your ears until after the fight is over. What you would notice real quick is that the spare magazine you reached for on your chest is actually in your pocket.

My opinion about training is to get the most out of it. If a dump pouch and other gear will help you focus on what you are being taught then I say GTG.

I agree completely. I intended to go to the PR class and use the chest rig to feed the left-rear pocket, but I both just plain forgot AND was using a dump pouch in that location anyway. Between now and my next class I'll be looking for alternates to the dump pouch so that I can literally "train the way I would fight."

[Jay Cunningham]

I wore jeans and a t-shirt all through the Pat Rogers class. Is there a clothing issue that I'm missing?

Nope.

For me, jeans are lacking because of the design of the pockets and the layout, size and number of belt loops.

I like a collared shirt to keep the sling from rubbing my neck raw. Standing on the line, shooting for long periods of time will wear on a guy. Same reason that I wear Mechanix gloves. There is safety gear and comfort gear and gear that makes it more convenient to keep your guns fed and focus on what the instructor is teaching.

Rob, I know that you are a squared-away shooter from second hand AAR's but I also know that you are a bit militant in your "anti-tactical" beliefs; hence the trademark visor and yellow shirt (or whatever).

That stuff works for you, so GTG. I do have a question for you, though: if your particular methods began to hold up a training class, would you change or would it be tough luck for the rest of the shooters?

[rob_s]

I also know that you are a bit militant in your "anti-tactical" beliefs; hence the trademark visor and yellow shirt (or whatever).

It's not "anti-tactical" as much as it's intended to take the piss out of some of the guys that are "over-tactical". The first time I ever showed up at an IDPA match everyone was wearing 5.11s, photographer's vests, Oakleys, and hiking or "tactical" boots. I thought I was shooting with a bunch of cops until I started asking around and found out everyone there was a lawyer or accountant. Then I would see them off-range and they would be dressed completely differently. The yellow visor, tennis shoes, etc. are meant to poke fun at that mentality a little, and hopefully get people to think for themselves instead of follow the herd.

Which is kind of what this thread is about. The guy that can't get over his gear or weapon choice, or who's gear/weapon choice is not based on actual usage but perceived cool points.

That stuff works for you, so GTG. I do have a question for you, though: if your particular methods began to hold up a training class, would you change or would it be tough luck for the rest of the shooters?

This was my dilema before going to Pat's class. I really wanted to go there with my IWB holster, my spare AR mag in my back pocket, and my rifle on a sling. I knew, however, that this would hamper the class and is why I originally intended to feed the pocket from the chest rig. It wound up that there were so many other people holding up the line that I could have been feeding my rifle from a magazine stored in my left sock and still not been "that guy".

I would really like to see Pat or another instructor do a non-LEO, civilian oriented class where you only kept two or three mags on you total (2 spares plus one in the gun at most) as you might in real post-hurricane / urban-riot / intruder-in-the-night kind of scenario. The basics are still there in terms of trigger control, shooting positions, etc., but the tempo and organization of the class would need to be slightly different in order to keep the rifles fed.