The wisdom of making a pump shotgun "feel" like a carbine

[Cruncher Block]

One thing I notice in the catalogs these days is there seem to be several aftermarket accessories that make a pump shotgun more like an M4 carbine.

I'm specifically talking about the combination of a pistol grip and a collapsible M4-style stock.

On one hand, the modern carbine seems to be a pretty ergonomic set-up. Anything that makes the shotgun handle better and faster is a good thing. If you're used to a carbine, one could argue that you don't have to relearn your movements when you grab the shotgun.

On the other hand, if you're experienced with both the carbine and the shotgun, I wonder if it's a bad thing to have them "feel" the same. When you get down to it, they are significantly different weapons. The projectiles behave differently. The safeties are in different places. Reloading and malfunction clearances are different. Most of all, there's that whole business of pumping between shots.

Is it possible having a shotgun that feels like a carbine might actually confuse the operator under stress? Might it cause someone to fail to pump the shotgun for a moment? Try to flip off a safety that's not in the "right place"? Would someone be inclined to grab a nonexistent charging handle if the round doesn't go off?

I'm guessing it boils down to training and personal preference but I also thought it would be an interesting discussion.

[Cameron]

So you are arguing that someone running a shotgun with an M4 stock and pistol grip, under stress, might forget they are using a SG and think they are using an M4...

Nope not gonna happen.

Cameron

[kmrtnsn]

I find the collapsible stock on a SG helps more when shooting wearing body armor. Something that traditional "rifle" style weapons stocks were never intended for. Also, that old, shooting from the pocket of the shoulder thing is going bye-bye, probably driven by the body armor issue. Stock placement is creeping closer and closer toward centerline, necessitating the collapsible stocks. I find that the pistol grip helps when holding the SG in the shooting position during reloads easier. A collapsible stock SG with a 14" barrel or shorter is much easier to put in a cruiser rack, or the ever shrinking trunk than an old school 18" 870 with wood furniture. I think these changes in SG furniture are driven by necessity, not fashion in most cases.

[ST911]

So you are arguing that someone running a shotgun with an M4 stock and pistol grip, under stress, might forget they are using a SG and think they are using an M4... Nope not gonna happen. Cameron

Not so fast. Happens all the time.

Watch a batch of LEOs (and others) that switch between the SG and carbine, and their first actions from muscle memory in the various operations of the gun and reduction of stoppages. This, on a stress-free square range. The transition is anything but seamless.

Add accessorization that confuses that muscle memory further, and the effect will be increased.

The question I ponder more is whether those who run a carbine as a primary long gun have an easier transition than those who run the SG. My jury is still out.

[Kilroy]

Had a recent example of a tricked out (with pistol grip) Mossberg pump gun. Owner found out he could not easily manipulate the safety. Proved to be a range hazard.

I am familiar with several academies that are considering eliminating shotgun training as so many of their agencies don't use them.

Having a shotgun AND rifle to train on is problem enough, given cost of time and ammo.

For most police road use, pick one of the other and train well with it.

[Iraq Ninja]

Not so fast. Happens all the time.

I say it is all a matter of one's level of training and experience. If they have an issue with the M4 and SG, would they not also have a problem with a M4 and AK74, which probably feels a lot more similar than a shotgun? I know LEO will not be using an AK, but my point is that such problems are not seen in very well trained individuals and thus should be an indicator of a training deficiency, as is common with the average LEO it seems...

I have a sneaking suspicion that we normally see more MM issues in a training environment than real life. Part of this may be the lack of motivation during training and the fact that stress training doesn't really simulate anything other than being under stress in a training environment.

[ST911]

I say it is all a matter of one's level of training and experience. If they have an issue with the M4 and SG, would they not also have a problem with a M4 and AK74, which probably feels a lot more similar than a shotgun? I know LEO will not be using an AK, but my point is that such problems are not seen in very well trained individuals and thus should be an indicator of a training deficiency, as is common with the average LEO it seems...

I have a sneaking suspicion that we normally see more MM issues in a training environment than real life. Part of this may be the lack of motivation during training and the fact that stress training doesn't really simulate anything other than being under stress in a training environment.

It is indeed a matter of training.

The next question(s) would be is what qualifies someone as a "well trained individual", and where the threshold is at which systems conflict diminish and then disappear.

We see more MM issues in training because we're more attentive to them. Training is a diagnostic and education process, so people are looking for them. They exist within real events, though, evidenced by the many videos of OIS and citizen shootings that are available.

LEOs aren't given sufficient training time and resources with which to build real competency in multiple systems. Most agencies and officers (and citizens, too) would be better served by committing to a single long gun system.

[Iraq Ninja]

I think training has to come from self motivation. This is probably the toughest part of getting people up to speed. You can lead a horse to water...

Have you ever noticed the difference in student motivation between those who seek out and pay for training, and those who are required to attend it for work? I see it all the time with the guys I work with. Thus, I try and inspire them while at the same time letting them realize that they are not as good as they think they are.

I often like to use the analogy of guns and guitars. It is hard to learn to play guitar if your only practice you get is during your lessons with your instructor. You may be able to strum a few chords, but you won't be able to make music. With a weapon, you may be able to shoot it, but not fight with it...

To me, combative shooting is a martial art and people forget the art aspect of it.

[bkb0000]

hell yea it's training... if you don't ever drive an auto, you'll stomp the floor looking for a clutch every time you do. if you never drive a stick, you'll constantly rev the engine waiting for the tranny to upshift. if you drive both regularily, even in similar vehicles, you wont do any of that. i drive both regularily, and i never confuse the two.

all i'd ever fired was a bolt-gun when i joined the army. i lifted my cheek and reached for the lever after every shot all through OSUT. i've had problems learning new weapons since (never even close to that bad, thankfully), and the solution is always training. i think i'm just reiterating whats being said- train with what you'll use and you wont have any problems. doesn't matter if you're going from m16 to shotgun, m9 to g17, FAL to AR, AR to AK, similar or dissimilar. if you train, your muscles will remember. your arms will recognize the difference in length of pull, your hands will remember the difference in pistol grip and trigger positions, your ears will associate report, etc., and you'll reach for the right things in the right places. even if the differences are subtle.

if you don't have the motivation to train to master a weapon, you wont.

[brokebronco]

hell yea it's training... if you don't ever drive an auto, you'll stomp the floor looking for a clutch every time you do. if you never drive a stick, you'll constantly rev the engine waiting for the tranny to upshift. if you drive both regularily, even in similar vehicles, you wont do any of that. i drive both regularily, and i never confuse the two.

My daughter laughs at me when I pump for a clutch and reach for the stick in my automatic F250. I drive two sticks and one auto on a regular basis.

You think by now I'd have it figured out.