Choosing a first carbine course

[andy t]

I am planning on taking a first carbine course this summer. I am currently on the fence between Jeff Gonzalez' Combative Carbine and Sig Sauer Academy's 2 day Defensive rifle course.
Two years ago I took half Combative pistol class with Jeff, and I didn't feel like I learned a lot, despite to firing nearly 900 rounds in a day. The CC is another high round class while the Sig Sauer ammo requirement is about half that of CC. Can anybody who has taken either of the classes comment? What do you think of high round count training classes?

Thanks.

[John Frazer]

Perhaps a little more information would help people give you solid recommendations:

1. What's your mission? (Military, police, private citizen? See the "Thoughts on Training" thread.)
2. What's your past experience?
3. Where are you located?

Also, some clarification related to number 2 above: Do I understand correctly that you only took half of Jeff Gonzales's class? Why did you think you weren't learning much? I've been in one class where two students nearly left at lunchtime the first day for that reason, but stuck it out after talking to the instructor, and ultimately found the class very beneficial.

[andy t]

1. I am a private citizen and want to take a formal carbine class.
2. I have taken a number of pistol classes over the years, but no carbine classes. Most of my knowledge is from books, with little (beside range sessions) actual training on a rifle.
3. I am in the New England. Unfortunately, we don't get too many trainers here.

Yes I took half of the pistol class. This was a five months after I got my permit, and I was running Walther P99C. During some of the drills, especially from 25 yards I couldn't hit anything, and we ended up spending close to 11 hours on the range because of heavy downpours expected the next day. Granted, that was three years ago, and my outlooks has changed, however, the high round count that time, and the feeling - perhaps wrong? - that some drills were geared more toward mil/le - i.e. the 25 yard qual turned me off a little?

[VTLO910]

Having never taken a carbine class (Not counting Military class), but having taken numerous pistol classes, it could go either way...

You can absolutely do an effective low round count class, but either way you should focus on your weapons handling, skills, etc...

PROPER repetition is what will make you fluid, not tossing a billion rounds down range... for if you shoot without proper form or technique you are just having fun and not learning anything.



I'm looking forward to my 1st carbine class someday.

[John Frazer]

Obviously I don't know you and wasn't in the class, but it sounds like that was a case of sheer frustration. You might also have been developing a flinch due to the high round count, especially if your pistol was the .40 caliber version.

Based on your comments, I'd suggest InSights Training Center's General Defensive Rifle class in Harrisburg, PA:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31480

This class is oriented toward the private citizen or patrol officer and has a relatively low round count so you don't get beat up too badly. (They also have combatives classes where you can get beat up if you so desire.)

Before whatever class you choose, you might spend some time working on basic accuracy. Try the Wall Drill, 3x5 card drill, and Dot Torture drill at http://pistol-training.com/drills. (Dot Torture would be a challenge with the carbine due to the sight offset, though.) You'll learn more and get more out of the class if you're hitting the target when you get there!

[Treehopr]

I haven't taken either course but If it were me I'd probably lean toward the Sigarms Defensive Rifle class. If nothing else the lower round count will make it less expensive.

I took his CP1 last year; Jeff has a unique teaching style and it may not be geared toward average citizens.

[andy t]

Ironically, this time, I would prefer a higher round class, since I have two new uppers that I want to "burn in".

[Treehopr]

If you want a high round count course to "burn in" your uppers then the Trident Course will provide a great opportunity to do that.

Let us know how the course goes.

[John Frazer]

Ironically, this time, I would prefer a higher round class, since I have two new uppers that I want to "burn in".

My recommendation is to take a course that will teach you what you need to learn. "Burn in" knowledge and skills, and the gun will follow.

You don't need to go to class to shoot hundreds of rounds in a day, and you've already learned that a high round count class may not be the optimum learning environment for you.

Pat Rogers mentioned a study that found most shooters can only really handle 300 rounds or so a day for productive training. (He admitted he goes beyond that, but still we only shot about 1200 in three days.)

The most I've shot was InSights' Intensive Handgun Skills, about 1800 rounds of 9mm in three days. The instructor emphasized that every shot should serve a purpose, but I do feel that was about my limit. My hands and forearms were actually sore for 2-3 days from gripping the gun, squeezing the DA/SA trigger, decocking, and loading mags.

[andy t]

I found that one of the classes where I learned a lot was taught by Louis Awerbuck - we used only 500 rounds over three days.