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Thread: Slide release or slide grab???

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Because the belief is that under stress when fine motor skills "diminish" you may not hit the release thereby losing valuable time.
    You do lose fine motor skills under stress that is a fact. Its an adrenaline response. Your body takes blood from your extremities and brings it to the core. You experience auditory exclusion and tunnel vision. Your dexterity also goes down hill. The good news is that training can lessen the effects of this as you become less stressed and get less adrenalin the more used to a situation you become. That is one of the reason seasoned combat vets do better than those that are not. They don't get stressed to the same level.

    I had to shoot 2 bear last summer. One charged. On that one All I could see was the bear and my front sight. I remember my training kicking in. After wards I experienced an adrenaline dump. My hands where shaky and I felt exhausted. Stress does funny things to your body. I use the over hand grip on the slide method to reload. I find it works every time. I have tried to use the slide stop and I have found that I don't always hit it reliably. Partly due to my smaller hands. I have tried both the weapon thumb and more recently my support hand thumb. Perhaps its just hard to kick old training. But I know what works for me.

    As for the mediocre shooters using fighting as an excuse. I have seen a lot of excellent shooters who have survived and won gun fights who disagree with you.

    Pat
    Last edited by Alaskapopo; 05-27-09 at 00:41.
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
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    Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.

  2. #12
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    Do you rack the slide or use the slide release when reloading?

    OK, I was going to respond to another thread regarding my preference but my response was a little long winded and off the original subject, so I decided to start another post.

    Which do you prefer between racking the slide after a reload and using the slide release/stop, and why? I don't want to start any lame internet arguments. I just want to hear some intelligent reasoning for why you do what you do. There are a lot of guys on here that are much more experienced than I am and I want to see if there is a better way than what I am already doing.



    I personally rack the slide on reloads, but I look at things a little differently than most of the people I have discussed this with. I think that the fewer manipulations that I have to know, the better. Since I already rack the slide to charge the pistol, I do the same during reloads. If I get a "combat slap" where the slide falls on the loaded mag after insertion, I still go ahead and rack the slide. If the slide fails to lock open on the last round, I reload the pistol and rack the slide (without needing to change anything that I already do). That way I only have to worry about that one action for several situations.

    I kind of look at it the same way I view combatives; the fewer options I have to consider, the less time it takes to respond. 'Too many options and the OODA loop goes into overdrive while you are getting your butt handed to you. If you can narrow things down to one action that solves the vast majority of problems you are likely to face, then you'll probably be better off for it.

    I notice that a lot of the guys that prefer using the slide release do so because it is a little quicker than racking the slide. I would argue that in many cases, a moderately slower manipulation that is executed deliberately and immediately can sometimes be faster in the long run than applying the most appropriate mechanical response for a given situation, simply because there is no need to take time observing the situation and deciding what action is appropriate to respond with. I understand that recognizing the situation and acting accordingly doesn't take much time for well trained individuals, but the time difference between racking the slide and dropping it with the release isn't all that much either.

    So what are your thoughts on the matter?

  3. #13
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    I was always taught in high stress situations fine motor skills go out the window. So instead of using a thumb or finger to sweep the slide release lever/button, you would use gross motor skills. Take your hand and grasp over the top of slide and rack it. Much like using your palm to smack the bolt release button on an AR15 instead of a finger. FWIW better safe than sorry, and that's how I train. Everyone is different.

  4. #14
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    I think this might actually be my first post but Ive been coming to this sight a lot so I hope I contribute.

    I personally prefer to rack the slide. I was taught that method in the slim chance that there could be a malfunction with the slide release. Also, my instructor taught me to keep my grip as consistent as possible and that using your thumb breaks that consistency.

  5. #15
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    When you insert a magazine your thumb comes very close to the slide release, makes little sense not to use it. As for the decrease in reliability in using the slide release, I feel that's bogus. Your more likely encounter problems racking than you would using the slide release. The biggest problem would be riding the slide forward not allowing it into battery. On the Beretta 92fs you can accidentally put the gun on safe via racking. To address the fine versus gross motor skills argument. Pulling the trigger requires more fine motor skills then pushing the slide release down.
    Last edited by Adam; 05-27-09 at 02:08.

  6. #16
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    RACK IT! you can train yourself to hit the lever every time, just takes more effert to be as consistent, whereas racking the slide is sooper easy- plus the slide is in the same spot on every pistol.

  7. #17
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    I have no experience in these matters so I can't comment. I advocate whatever works best for the shooter. I never made such a claim so I have no idea where you got that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
    You do lose fine motor skills under stress that is a fact. Its an adrenaline response. Your body takes blood from your extremities and brings it to the core. You experience auditory exclusion and tunnel vision. Your dexterity also goes down hill. The good news is that training can lessen the effects of this as you become less stressed and get less adrenalin the more used to a situation you become. That is one of the reason seasoned combat vets do better than those that are not. They don't get stressed to the same level.

    I had to shoot 2 bear last summer. One charged. On that one All I could see was the bear and my front sight. I remember my training kicking in. After wards I experienced an adrenaline dump. My hands where shaky and I felt exhausted. Stress does funny things to your body. I use the over hand grip on the slide method to reload. I find it works every time. I have tried to use the slide stop and I have found that I don't always hit it reliably. Partly due to my smaller hands. I have tried both the weapon thumb and more recently my support hand thumb. Perhaps its just hard to kick old training. But I know what works for me.

    As for the mediocre shooters using fighting as an excuse. I have seen a lot of excellent shooters who have survived and won gun fights who disagree with you.


    Pat
    Last edited by Iraqgunz; 05-27-09 at 02:49.



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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    I have no experience in these matters so I can't comment. I advocate whatever works best for the shooter. I never made such a claim so I have no idea where you got that.
    Sorry that was ToddG's claim. I did not use the quote feature correct to include multiple quotes.
    Pat
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
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    Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.

  9. #19
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    Adam, I have actually had the standard slide stop fail to work when using Glocks (which is what I carry). I tried the extended slide stop but my grip holds it down so the slide doesn't lock back on the last round most of the time.

    I didn't think about the safety engaging on the Beretta 92 because I rarely spend any time with DA/SA pistols (especially the ones with a slide mounted safety - I don't get along with them very well). When I think about it I have had the de-cocker engage on both a Beretta 92 and a Baby Eagle when racking the slide. I have been told that a strip of skateboard tape on top of the slide will let you easily rack it with an open hand and a little pressure, but I have never tried it (and that seems like a temporary solution at best). I just don't play with those pistols any more than I have to to familiarize myself with their controls a bit. Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

    As for riding the slide back, that is a user induced error akin to not seating the magazine fully, IMO. Either will cause problems regardless of the pistol used, and the only solution is to perform each task properly (the slide still has to be manipulated to charge the pistol or perform malfunction clearances, so it is gonna have to be learned properly whether the user prefers using the slide release or not).

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Conventional wisdom on this issue switches back and forth. I can't speak to what "training manuals and videos" are recommending, but among the best mil, LE, and private instructors I've seen the whole "fine vs. gross motor skill" thing has been put to rest and the general consensus is:

    • Hit the slide release if you can do so quickly and easily.
    • Rack the slide otherwise.


    In my opinion, the whole "rack the slide" mantra finds its genesis among mediocre shooters who like to use the word fighting as an excuse for why their hard skills suck.
    I concur with this assessment.

    Grabbing the slide versus using the slide release was virtually beaten into many of us (in fact, so against the concept of using the slide release were some schools that they insisted on calling it the "slide catch", no matter what the actual nomenclature was) at several schools. If you can hit the slide release while driving the gun to target, it will be faster than sling-shotting the slide.

    I use the slide release on guns that are built right in that aspect (M9s, 1911s, Glocks, etc) but occasionally have to grab the slide on others (Sig P226) since I ride the slide release with my right thumb when shooting, causing it to fail to lock the slide to the rear on the last round about 90% of the time.
    Jack Leuba
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