AAR: Vickers Tactical 1911 Operator's Course 6/6-6/7 2009

[Littlelebowski]

Sounds like some myths about the 1911 were shattered. Care to elaborate? Great review by the way.

[Robb Jensen]

Good AAR Tim.

So many people believe in so many of the gun myths that I sometimes go crazy at the store trying to explain that somethings just aren't true.

[d90king]

Looks like a great class! I wish I could have made it, but back to back classes are hard to pull off with the family this time of year... Great write up JW and great pics as usual Templar...


CHECK FOR TICKS!

[TOrrock]

Good AAR Tim.

So many people believe in so many of the gun myths that I sometimes go crazy at the store trying to explain that somethings just aren't true.

Yup. Sometimes I would start bleeding from my eyes trying to set people right when I was behind the counter....

Great write up JW.

The team drills on TD2 were a lot of fun and were very effective on bringing to light what people need to work on, whether is was sight alignment/living in the wobble zone, or trigger control. Go Team T.I.P.!

John_Wayne777 made it back to approximately 110 yards on the walk back drill on TD2.....that's with a 1911 in .45 ACP with irons.....

Great class, good group of guys too. I was very happy with my Springfield Armory MC Operator. It had already been through two Vickers classes and one of Dave Pennington's high volume concealed carry class, it hasn't bobbled yet, but I don't treat it like a Glock 19 either.

I highly recommend this class for any 1911 shooter.

[John_Wayne777]

Sounds like some myths about the 1911 were shattered. Care to elaborate? Great review by the way.

The 1911 itself is the subject of a lot of myth and legend because of it's history. As often happens in the gun world grains of truth get surrounded by layers of BS and the whole package becomes accepted as gospel. In WWII there was a set of standards laid down for the 1911 that all manufacturers had to observe. A committee from the DOD assured compliance with those standards. The GI ball ammo used was taper crimped and designed for reliability. It was produced with enormous amounts of skilled labor and rigid QC and specs designed to make it function as a combat weapon.

That's not the case today. There's no standard for producing the 1911 that all makers observe. The careful and competent hand fitting crucial to making a 1911 run reliably isn't done partially because it's insanely expensive in the era of CNC machines and partly because so much of the 1911 world has evolved around insane accuracy standards and competition parts to the point that few people seem to understand what a combat sidearm is supposed to do. People use a wide range of ammo that wasn't even contemplated by ammo or weapon designers in 1942.

It's often been argued that the 1911's were "inaccurate" because of loose tolerances to make them function reliably in combat. In reality the major fault with the accuracy of the 1911's used in the US military was the shooter. The US military as a whole dedicates PITIFULLY few resources to teaching people how to use a handgun. I've got two Sistema 1911's that I bought on my C&R license for 200 bucks a piece. To say they were in bad shape when I got them would be a charitable description. One has a badly pitted bore and worn rifling and in the other you can barely see any rifling left at all....and yet BOTH will shot big ragged one hole groups if I do my part on the trigger. Even though they are old and were hideously abused, they are STILL more accurate than I am. I'm certainly not an exceptional shooter. I'd rate myself as barely mediocre...but I am certainly better than most. If *I* can't out-shoot a beat up war horse I sincerely doubt most shooters can.

...and yet on the flip side of that coin we have lots of super-expensive 1911's that have accuracy guarantees. Now having a gun that is guaranteed to shoot 1.5" at 25 yards with the right ammo certainly isn't a bad thing, but most who buy such a gun would be much better off spending the X thousand dollars used for that pistol on training. The weapon itself isn't going to make you accurate...trigger control does. Trigger control comes through training and practice. Here again I'm not bashing anyone's choice to buy a nice custom 1911. If you want one, more power to you. I do think, however, people take the inherent mechanical accuracy of a potential purchase and blow it way the hell out of proportion. I think that energy would be better spent worrying about getting a 1911 that will run with defensive ammo fed from quality magazines, at least for weapons meant for serious social purposes.

If you picture the gun magazine mystique of the 1911 as a beautiful bird on the wing, this course is a load of birdshot knocking it right out of the sky. One of the folks in the classroom during the armorer portion was discussing the 1911 with LAV as we were working on our guns and remarked something to the effect of "After using Glocks for a while and looking at all of this now, I wonder why in the hell I ever put up with all this nonsense in the first place."

A good question. I've personally held the opinion that 1911's aren't for everyone ever since I first started living with them (by choice, mind you) as a primary carry gun. Before ever knowing about the existence of this course I was looking to replace my 1911 with something that was cheaper and easier to maintain. Taking this course brought back every memory of my time with the 1911 (good and bad) and underscored the reasons why I decided to go another way.

Invariably some will read what I have written and take away from it that the course was a 1911 bash fest. That's not the case. The course itself just presents the raw, unvarnished truth about the 1911 as a go-to platform. Exactly what you take away from it is totally dependent upon the perspective you have going into it. I'm sure there are some guys who walked away from the course more jazzed about 1911's than they've ever been because NOW they know what to look for and how to solve some common problems. I personally walked away thinking that my decision to shelve my 1911's was a good one, and that unless God sees fit to drop vast sums of money in my lap out of the blue that I won't be buying any more expensive 1911s. If I see an old Colt at a good price I'll snatch it up, but I won't be carrying it as a go-to platform any more than I will carry my nickel plated S&W model 27.

Reasonable people can look at the same set of objective facts and reach different conclusions about their personal situation based on those facts. Personally I have neither the time, money, or interest to use the 1911 as my go-to platform. Were I in a position to decide for an agency or team I wouldn't select the 1911 because of the huge support nightmare that accompanies them. They just aren't for me.

I say this as a guy who:

- has carried one for years
- has spent thousands of dollars training and practicing with the 1911
- has had largely reliable service from the specimens that I've owned

That's just my perspective based on personal experience which was reinforced by the content of this class. My gun worked reliably in the class even with aluminum cased ammo, and it's worked reliably for many thousands of rounds prior to this course. I didn't have any trouble getting my gun apart or getting it put back together. I wasn't effected by a particularly troublesome specimen of 1911 that turned me sour on the whole concept. It's just the logical end to a trajectory I was already on for quite a while.

Others may have an entirely different perspective based on the factors unique to their situations. That's cool too.

[Sigmax]

Another great experience with Larry's class. Each time you come away with such an abundance of information that you could literally take the same class 2 or 3 times and learn something new each time.

This class was no exception and learned things, both good and bad, about the 1911 that we really could not have learned from anyone else as detailed in the AAR by John_Wayne777. If you are even thinking about seriously running a 1911 this is a must take course. You learn the good, the bad, and the ugly of this platform. And you come away with a true appreciation of the skills & information needed to properly run this gun. Information you certainly will not get from any gun magazine or builder.

And as always as a bonus you get information on a wide range of topics from across the industry. LAV is extremely forth right with his opinions and experiences & always communicates them with an entertaining amount of color.

A special thanks, as always to Dave P for his hard work & instruction and to Templar and John_Wayne777 for their hospitality and willingness to pitch in and help dig me out of a hole I dug for myself detail stripping my 1911. They both went out of their way to help out everyone in the class. Well worth the 19 hours I spent traveling to and from South Hill this weekend.

EDIT: DITTO everything John_Wayne777 said, as he summed it up the best. How many guns choked with in the first 50 rounds of class? Several. I won't be selling all my 1911's but I will be more dedicated to maintaining them correctly certainly & have more realistic expectations about their performance.

And as always, GO TEAM TIP!!

[John_Wayne777]

Another thing worth mentioning from this course:

Even though the course was basically intended to teach you how to run a 1911 and keep it running, the instruction on the basics of shooting accurately were incredibly valuable and are a shortcut to success. Learning to properly control the trigger and how to see the sights early on in your life will make all the difference in the world.

I've been asked in the past why LAV bothers with the walkback drill. It's very simple: That drill is a 100% fundamentals drill. When you are shooting at a 12" steel plate at 110-115 yards with an open sighted handgun, you have to exercise proper trigger control. You have to learn to live with your "wobble zone". In this course EVERY walkback drill went to at least 100 yards. Think about what that means. In every drill we had at least a few people who were making hits on a 12" steel plate with open sighted handguns at 50, 60, 75, 90, and 100 yards.

With the 1911 shooting 230 grain hardball (I think most of us were shooting 230 grain hardball) this required compensation for bullet drop. On the last walkback drill I was actually aiming at a line in the berm above the white plate. In the first two walkbacks I ended up striking out at around 100 yards, always hitting low. I was firmly convinced this was because of the bullet drop. I heard LAV and the AI discussing their holdover and I adopted their aiming point to see if I could lob the round in there. When I broke the shot my sights were actually slightly below that line and to the right of the plate...but the sights were perfectly parallel and I pulled the trigger in a way that wouldn't have dropped the case off the front sight. The end result was a hit in what I believe was the center of the plate.

All of that fundamentals stuff works, folks.

[JiMfraRED1911]

[Sidewinder6]

I have not taken Larry's class yet but have a strong interest. Out of curiousity, if Mr Vickers picks up a gun to carry these days, what would that gun be? I ask this being aware of his stellar reputation as an authority on the 1911 as well as his input on some of the modern designs that were produced to replace the M92.

I suspect he can run anything, but he must have something he has bonded with.

[theJanitor]

I just acquired a special 1911, a LAV built 1911. now I just need to find a way to get 4000+miles to get to this class.