Times change, do you?

[Failure2Stop]

I had a spark after sifting through numerous old posts on a recent topic here. It really dawned on me how fast things can change, either to an individual or as collective/institutional knowledge.

I forgot that it was only a few years ago that I was using three-point slings, VFGs almost touching the mag-well, 12 HK magazines stuck to my armor, and a white-light mounted at 6 o'clock. All while knowing that I was on top of the whole business. I had gone to some dangerous places and prevailed in bad circumstances. I was a good shooter and trusted instructor. I had learned from some of the best around. But that doesn't change the fact that techniques, items, and skills evolved away from what I was doing/using then.

Not all things have drastically changed, some of it is pretty subtle, such as my grip on a pistol, or shoulder transitions and how I have my sling set-up. In fact, I would say that most skills have simply been tweaked and honed, not completely revised. Some of the big things are with gear. Things that we thought were great turned out to be mediocre (HK mags) and some things that were under-stated turned into the killer app (Aimpoint Micro).

Maybe I am just lucky in that I am exposed to a lot of different people, organizations, and nations. Maybe I am just lucky in that I have a job that lets me play with guns and shoot a lot to develop and hone technique and skill. While I think that those are aspects that have enabled the process I would have to say that the single thing that I has most promoted progress is willingness. I am willing to listen to what others have to say, see what they do, and try it.

One nice thing is that I have a steady supply of students to experiment with little tweaks and watch how they perform, with a database for comparison.

I have also gained a tremendous amount of information as far as civilian spec AR platfroms (and FALs ) go. I didn't know until about three years ago how very different they are from the guns in our armories. Hell, I can even remember a time I recommended that a buddy get a DPMS because, "ARs are ARs, and parts is parts!" Wow. How much we have learned, how far we have come.

So how are the rest of you doing? Where have you trained? What have you learned? What have you changed? How has your knowledge changed your gear or your interaction with it? What are your goals and how do you intend on reaching them and setting new goals?

[FMF_Doc]

My training came to me over the last 20 years from the US Army, I enlisted when I was 17 and then went on to serve with the US Navy (assigned to Marine Corps units), I am a medic by training.

The tactical training that medics undergo has changed drastically, especially in the last 4-5 years.

My weapons had completely changed from the M16A1 and an ancient 1911, to the M16A2, M9 and the last weapons I was assigned was an M4.

I am medically retired due to injuries, but my current personal weapons reflect a lifetime of training and I am always learning new things about the platforms and add ons to gain the tactical advantage.

Im my civilian life I have trained with our State Police, FBI HRT, and local agency special operations teams.

[SeriousStudent]

I have learned the difference between stupidity and ignorance, in this realm. I used to be stupid, and now am just ignorant. I now know what I do not know, and have yet to learn. Previously, I was one of the window-lickers that thought they had it all down, since I was a former grunt.

Tactics, techniques and equipment have advanced greatly from the muskets and pikes we used to carry when I was on active duty.

I have learned to keep my cakehole closed, and to STFU and take copious notes when someone takes the time and effort to teach me something. And I try and tear it apart a dozen different ways, to see how I can best use it. And then I sincerely thank them for their time and efforts.

I chose my screen name for a reason. I want to be a serious student of what will hopefully never again be a life-saving skill.

My best regards to all those that I have learned from. This place is a storehouse of riches.

[PlatoCATM]

To echo F2S, I have learned the value of willingness. It is sometimes hard for me to overcome my stereotypes, but I am finally overcoming that. After a long hatred of glocks, the accolades given to them on this forum were enough for me to try one out. I recently replaced my 1911 for a G19, and I have found that I shoot it better and I can carry it concealed much more easily. I have upgraded from inferior gear, from my ARs to the slings that carry them. It's too bad some of my unit's SOPs have also changed contradictory to what I feel is best, but I just have to adapt and overcome this. I guess, I have taken a more "no compromise" attitude towards gear, TTPs, training and learning. Willingness and not compromising are now interdependent ideas, as I continually seek to find the best solution for a given situation.

[rob_s]

I've learned I don't want a job in the gun industry.

you said a mouthful there!

If I won the lottery tomorrow I'd still open a gun shop, but only because my mortgage and car payments wouldn't be reliant on same. Peeling back the curtain just the tiniest bit, and seeing what I've seen since I started writing, shows me that I would never want my family's well being to be dependent on that industry. Even the writing is something that I'm happy to get paid for, but wouldn't want to (and frankly couldn't) live off of.

I know I'd be happiest in the gun business, but only if I didn't have to rely on it to eat.

[C45P312]

Finally, even though I am still training with it and mucking around with it, I've come to the conclusion that carbine is a waste of time for 99% of us. It's enjoyable because it's flashy and easy (or at least easier) and there's more to do in terms of bolt-ons and support gear, but the carbine is not my primary. For virtually everyone outside the military they should be focusing on the handgun, and their carry handgun at that. Practicing with a 5" 1911 and carrying a S&W snubbie isn't much better than wasting a lot of time with the carbine. This isn't to say that the carbine is totally useless, or that one shouldn't train with it, but I see a trend where people spend 90% of their training time and dollars on carbine ant 10% on handgun, when IMHO that ratio should be inverted.

I definitely agree with you here. At the beginning of this year, I thought it would great to get proficient with different firearms ... AK, AR, 1911, other Semi pistols, long range precision, etc etc. I got more to reading here on M4C and decided that I would never reach my goals trying to master so many different types of weapons, plus how costly it would be to get training on so many different platforms. What really pushed me over the edge was realizing all the different training elements available through different instructors. I've then dwindled my 15+ firearms to only 6.

16in AR
10.5in AR
Glock 17
Glock 19
Kimber TLE/RL II
AI AE .308

I only carry the Glock 19 for CCW. I have the Glock 17 because the Police departments I applied to carry the Glock 17. I plan to use the G17 for competition. After reading this thread, I've decided to push myself to take ToddG's course here in VA this upcoming August if there is still room. This will be my very first class and I'm very excited. Like Rob has said, I plan to take 1 carbine class to every 2-3 pistol classes since I'm more to use the pistol versus carbine.

[Business_Casual]

I've learned that "advanced" is just a mastery of the basics.

I've learned that all instructors/schools are not equal.

I've learned that I don't really need a huge carbine skill set.

I've learned I need to focus on my CCW handgun, and 100 rounds of really good practice is priceless compared to aimlessly blasting with a carbine.

I've learned that if I shoot the civilian target to just call them collaborators.

M_P

[matthewdanger]

In a very general sense, I have learned how much I don't know. The more training I acquire, the more it seems I want/need to know. This has also highlighted the importance of having someone outside of myself (the instructor) watching what I do. I always seem to progress more quickly under the watchful eye of a skilled instructor than I ever can running my own drills.

I am also learning to lean more on what I do know as a BS filter. Now when I am training and I hear some new info or technique, it is easier to pass it through the filter of what I know to work. It makes it much easier to separate the peppercorns from the rabbit turds.

Some more specific item would be that I have changed how I grip a handgun. I used to do a sort of modified thumbs tucked grip on my Glocks in order to avoid contacting the slide stop. Recently I have been using a more traditional thumbs forward grip. I was having difficulty progressing past a certain level with the old grip but the new grip is already paying dividends (at least on the shot timer).

I also took the time to reacquaint myself with vertical grips. When I was new to this stuff, I had them on all my rifles because they were cool. I used those things like handlebars on a bike to steer my rifle and ended up muscling shots all over the place. I ended up taking them off after day 1 of a 3 day course. That was about 6 years ago. Recently, I have been reading about more effective ways to deploy them - gripping it like the support hand grips a handgun and using it to pull the carbine into the shoulder. The results have been phenomenal. I am seeing real gains in shot to shot speed.

[rob_s]

Finally, even though I am still training with it and mucking around with it, I've come to the conclusion that carbine is a waste of time for 99% of us. It's enjoyable because it's flashy and easy (or at least easier) and there's more to do in terms of bolt-ons and support gear, but the carbine is not my primary. For virtually everyone outside the military they should be focusing on the handgun, and their carry handgun at that. Practicing with a 5" 1911 and carrying a S&W snubbie isn't much better than wasting a lot of time with the carbine. This isn't to say that the carbine is totally useless, or that one shouldn't train with it, but I see a trend where people spend 90% of their training time and dollars on carbine ant 10% on handgun, when IMHO that ratio should be inverted.

So with all of the above said, I have a couple of carbine classes I want to hit in '10, but handgun is really where I want to focus, and I want to focus on it with a new group of people and get exposed to more and different dogmas.

Feel free to skip the ramblings and jump down to The Point! below.

Someone was nice enough to send me a PM and point out that they think there's a ring of hypocrisy in the above. They point out that, with two carbine courses left to take this year, and two I want to take next year, that I'd have to then take 18 handgun classes in 2009 and another 18 in 2010 in order to achieve my 90/10 split.

They also point out that of those four classes, two of them will be with instructors who have "spent time out west", something I say I'm trying to break away from, and that taking classes with these two is also hypocritical.

There are three reasons for my inferred hypocrisy.

The first is that the realization that I have largely been mis-focusing my training dollars and time is a very recent one for me. It wasn't really until this year that it started to dawn on me, and I had originally signed up for two handgun classes in the first part of the year in order to start to address this. A family emergency kept me from attending those classes and that timetable got pushed back, to the point that the first of those classes just happened last month.

The second is that I'm frankly having a hard time finding quality handgun instruction that I think is cost-effective and that works with my schedule. Yes, I could fly out to Gunsite for a week, or to any of the traveling shows around the country when they occur on a date that works for me, but I don't think that's cost effective. Instead I'm trying to find instructors that can come to my area or that will be close enough by to be cost effective and involve as little downtime as possible. Since everything these days is carbine carbine carbine, and that's what's driving the market it's hard to get enough people interested in doing something hard when they can do something easy and still call it "training".

The third, which goes directly to the second, is that if there is an instructor coming to my area that I've been wanting to train with but that is doing a carbine instead of a handgun, then I have to make a decision to either pass up that opportunity or take the class. I'll typically (calendar and finances willing) take the class. Kyle Lamb, for example, will hopefully be coming to Florida again early next year. I hope that he comes for handgun, but if he comes for carbine then that's what I'll sign up for.

But ultimately I think the premise is flawed. The whole supposition is based on an idea that the only training is formalized training with a recognized instructor for 2-3 days. IMHO, and back to the topic of the thread at hand, if formalized instruction is your only training then you're screwed. I see it all the time at classes with the guys that take a class, go home and never touch the gun, and then come back and take another class, go home and never touch the gun, etc. They never improve. Sure, they're better on TD3 than they were on TD1, but come next year's TD1 they're back where they started.

Again on topic, I have come to the realization that formal instruction should be only a small part of your overall training regimen. If a shooter takes 24 hours of pistol instruction and 24 hours of rifle instruction in a year the impression could be that the focus is equal. However if that same shooter spends 15 minutes every day with the handgun doing dryfire practice and an hour a month at the indoor range working on their marksmanship, their total hours for the year are 111 (300 days x 15 minutes a day plus 24 hours instruction plus 12 monthly training sessions) hours of pistol training vs. 24 of carbine at the class. Not quite to that 90/10 split I suggest, but a hell of a lot closer than it may appear. And the focus is clearly largely on the gun that should be getting the focus.

The Point!

Which brings me to my point vis-a-vis this thread, which is that training doesn't end when the certificates are handed out on TD3. What you spent 3 days doing was getting the tools you need to go home and continue training on your own. Once upon a time I thought that all I needed to do was go to class, then come home and sit on my ass until the next one, and my skills would automatically magically appear. Nope. You have to keep working on things away from class. And coincidentally even if you think there should be an equal emphasis on carbine and handgun, the handgun skills are tougher to master and perish quicker, and therefore require more training time invested to even keep the same level of skill with both guns.

So while I don't think this revelation is due to times changing, I certainly have.

[Jay Cunningham]

which is that training doesn't end when the certificates are handed out on TD3. What you spent 3 days doing was getting the tools you need to go home and continue training on your own. Once upon a time I thought that all I needed to do was go to class, then come home and sit on my ass until the next one, and my skills would automatically magically appear. Nope. You have to keep working on things away from class. And coincidentally even if you think there should be an equal emphasis on carbine and handgun, the handgun skills are tougher to master and perish quicker, and therefore require more training time invested to even keep the same level of skill with both guns.

Which could be a whole separate thread. There is *training*, and then there is *practice*. Some seem to think that a quest to rack up as much documented training time as possible will get them to where they want to be. Yet they don't dry-fire, nor do they go to the practice range with a shot timer or plan.