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Thread: Revocable Trust and Texas

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman8 View Post
    My whole problem with this is what is considered the NFA item?

    If its a suppressor, I can see where it would be easy to see "who" or "what" bought the item since it is all just one "unit".

    But in the case of an SBR, the lower is the "firearm" and is in essence the NFA item (correct?). Now what happens when you buy a lower, shoot it with a 16" upper, and then a year later decide to create a trust, SBR the original non-NFA lower, and buy a sub-16" barrel/upper receiver group? Does that "paper trail" now lead back to the individual instead of the trust because the lower (the "firearm") was originally bought by him and not the trust? Even if the "trust" bought the short barrel/upper receiver group, the lower was still bought by the individual. What happens then?

    I think its all semantics, and you can't have it both ways, so which one is it?
    It all comes down to what is known as "constructive possession". When you construct a rifle with <16" barrel, using an existing lower receiver from a rifle with >16" barrel, you must register the lower receiver as a short barreled rifle. Say you wanted to take the rifle across state lines into a state that doesn't allow SBRs. If you leave the <16" upper at home, the lower is still registered as an SBR, but because you don't have "constructive possession" to actually build the SBR (by placing the short barreled upper reciever on the lower reciever) at that point, it's not purview to NFA laws until you are once again in "constructive possession" of an SBR.

    As far as what classifies as an NFA item, as far as I understand it, is the serial numbered reciever upon which an SBR, SBS, MG, or AOW can be built (when in "constructive possession" of the parts to do so[?]), as well as destructive devices and suppressors.

  2. #42
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    If you don't know for sure, please don't speculate. It creates more confusion. Please read the various threads in the NFA area. There is alot of info here. IG
    Last edited by Iraqgunz; 07-13-11 at 15:48. Reason: Calls for speculation.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperashes View Post
    It all comes down to what is known as "constructive possession". When you construct a rifle with <16" barrel, using an existing lower receiver from a rifle with >16" barrel, you must register the lower receiver as a short barreled rifle. Say you wanted to take the rifle across state lines into a state that doesn't allow SBRs. If you leave the <16" upper at home, the lower is still registered as an SBR, but because you don't have "constructive possession" to actually build the SBR (by placing the short barreled upper reciever on the lower reciever) at that point, it's not purview to NFA laws until you are once again in "constructive possession" of an SBR.

    As far as what classifies as an NFA item, as far as I understand it, is the serial numbered reciever upon which an SBR, SBS, MG, or AOW can be built (when in "constructive possession" of the parts to do so[?]), as well as destructive devices and suppressors.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman8 View Post
    My whole problem with this is what is considered the NFA item?

    If its a suppressor, I can see where it would be easy to see "who" or "what" bought the item since it is all just one "unit".

    But in the case of an SBR, the lower is the "firearm" and is in essence the NFA item (correct?). Now what happens when you buy a lower, shoot it with a 16" upper, and then a year later decide to create a trust, SBR the original non-NFA lower, and buy a sub-16" barrel/upper receiver group? Does that "paper trail" now lead back to the individual instead of the trust because the lower (the "firearm") was originally bought by him and not the trust? Even if the "trust" bought the short barrel/upper receiver group, the lower was still bought by the individual. What happens then?

    I think its all semantics, and you can't have it both ways, so which one is it?
    I am interested in the "paper trail" that has been discussed. Not "constructive intent". As seen in the bold text, I am buying the short barrel/URG AFTER creating the trust so constructive intent isn't an issue. I think we are on the same page as far as the "paper trail" is concerned, but I wanted the other guys who say that you need the separate account, ect to weigh in.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman8 View Post
    I am interested in the "paper trail" that has been discussed. Not "constructive intent". As seen in the bold text, I am buying the short barrel/URG AFTER creating the trust so constructive intent isn't an issue. I think we are on the same page as far as the "paper trail" is concerned, but I wanted the other guys who say that you need the separate account, ect to weigh in.
    If you are going the trust route, not only would you need to wait until after creating the trust, you would need to wait until your Form 1 came back approved. Hence, the "constructive possession" comment. Basically, as I gather from what has been said is that paper documentation of the fact that "the trust" bought the NFA firearm, or bought the parts to construct the NFA firearm, rather than you, the individual. My counter arguement was that you, the individual are the proprietor of the trust, and have full grantor ability, so as long as you maintain the paperwork required that states the NFA firearm is under control of the trust, there shouldn't be a need for much more of a "paper trail" than that. It seems like a bunch of conspiracy theory manufactured by half-told stories with missing details.

  5. #45
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    There is way too much thinking going on here. The whole "constructive intent/ possession" thing has been discussed so much and it's much ado about nothing.



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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    There is way too much thinking going on here. The whole "constructive intent/ possession" thing has been discussed so much and it's much ado about nothing.
    Not playing the blame game or anything, but I wasn't even remotely talking about constructive intent.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperashes View Post
    I disagree. I've known more than a couple of people who practice what I'm saying, including a good friend that operates under a reputable security contracting company. If you look at it from a business standpoint, rather than a legal document, that essentially what a trust is. When an entrepreneur starts a business, they may have to spend money out of their personal checking account to provide the overhead required to start up their small business. When you start a small business, you don't take out a loan under "XXX Gun shop", you take it out in your name, with the intention of expenditure toward the business that you are creating.

    The same principle applies to the trust. You as an individual are a trustee, granted power over said trust to provide material assets as well as financial control. Saying that the trust is only legally able to spend money for itself is asinine, because if you trace that money back far enough, it's going to trace back to you anyway. I'm not saying do or don't create a separate bank account for your trust. All I'm saying is that it's not entirely necessary for all funds to come exclusively from a bank account that is designated as the "trust's" business account. As primary trustee and grantor, you are essencially the CEO of your trust, and take action for the trust on it's behalf, because a legal document can't make it's own decisions and/or decrees. Also, as I stated before, if you do your research, you will find that it is technically supposed to be the seller that pays the tax stamp, not the buyer, which is where it seems most peoples' fears come from, is paying for the tax stamp personally, when the trust is going to own the firearm. The trust that YOU own, owns the firearm.

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nati...sfer-procedure

    3rd paragraph: "A check or money order for $200 ($5 for transfer of “any other weapon”) shall be made payable to ATF by the transferor"



    Your wrong and so is your friend.

    A trust is not a business.

    Almost every trust that is done properly, ie education trust, land/real estate trust, NFA trust, has its own bank account with its own checks.
    Last edited by scottryan; 07-13-11 at 14:56.
    "Not every thing on Earth requires an aftermarket upgrade." demigod/markm

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperashes View Post
    Don't quote me on this, I'm not entirely sure, but I believe you would be able to do a tax exempt transfer, because essentially, you are transfering to yourself. You are an agent for the trust, but you are transfering possession from you as a person, to you as a representative of the trust. Which is the same reason I pose my previous arguement.


    You need to quit posting about these matters.

    There is no such thing as a tax exempt transfer to yourself from your trust.
    "Not every thing on Earth requires an aftermarket upgrade." demigod/markm

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottryan View Post
    You need to quit posting about these matters.

    There is no such thing as a tax exempt transfer to yourself from your trust.
    I didn't say from the trust to yourself, I said to the trust. And I very clearly stated at the beginning of my post that I wasn't entirely sure in that aspect. I haven't sat here and preached what I'm saying as God's truth and nothing but. If I've stated something I've been unsure about, I've stated that I wasn't sure, and to ask elsewhere to confirm or deny. Please don't make me out to look like a bad guy.

  10. #50
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    I have the information I needed and I am closing this down. Thanks



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

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