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Thread: Why'd you buy it?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    You're making a lot of leaps, but I'll indulge you under the assumption you're actually asking these questions and not just trolling, and in the hopes that somebody else reading this doesn't think you have a point.
    No, I'm not trolling.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I was talking particularly about procurement because the poster I quoted mis-stated how it works. I wasn't referring to what any civilian buyer does, or even to any specific spec. He said "low bidder", and I corrected him.
    I wasn't referring to this, rather the notion that a "lesser" manufacturer isn't a supplier because it can't meet the basic requirement: "What's truly frightening is that all of these hobby guns can't even meet that spec. They don't get to even try to be lowest bidder because they can't meet the basic requirements."

    The confusion, I think, is that there is an assumption that a manufacturer's AR platforms will be nearly the same regardless of them being produced for the military or for the commercial market. I don't believe they necessarily will be, and can't be assumed to be even with military contract in hand. This may be a misinterpretation on my part about what you wrote, but I'm not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    My day job is construction, and we are not simply selected as "low bidder", we're the lowest bidder that can comply with the drawings and specs. and just like in the gun world, we get a lot of contractors that can't even meet the base spec.

    In fact, the Chart isn't a list of the military spec, it's a list of desirable features with a pretty lengthy explanation of why they are desirable.

    How do we know Bushmaster, Olympic, DPMS, and the like don't meet the spec? Because if you know the right questions to ask they'll TELL YOU that they don't!

    What most uneducated buyers do is call up the manufacturer of the gun they've already settle on buying (or too often, already bought), and ask "do you make a milspec AR?" To which, of course, the manufacturer (or whatever $5/hour nitwit that answered the phone that day) says "yes we do!" The problem is that they asked the wrong question. What they should have asked was "do high pressure test and magnetically particle inspect every single bolt that is sold with your rifles?", or "Does your barrel steel meet MIL-B-1195-E?" If you ask the right questions, they'll tell you point blank that they don't meet a specific spec you're asking about. Or as you yourself pointed out just pick one up and see if they have bothered to stake the receiver endplate or the carrier key at all.
    If you ask BM are their chambers 5.56 NATO spec, they'll tell you yes and, by God, it's stamped right there on the barrel. IG, on the other hand, might disagree with that (don't want to put words into his mouth). Do you think BM is being disingenuous or just oblivious to a particular production issue? If you look at the LMT MIM gas keys, are they staked correctly to spec? Would a new buyer be able to tell -- well there are those tremendous indentations on it so it must be good, right? Would you accept it?

    Does BM barrel steel meet MIL-B-1195-E? Well it is advertised as 4150, one of the three listed in the spec. Does that mean all 4150 steel will meet the chemical analysis given by that spec? Good luck getting that out of BM.

    You can arrange a list of questions pulled from the spec for all sorts of things, crazy difficult things like barrel assembly straightness, all which are unverifiable by the commercial purchaser. They simply aren't qualified as first time purchasers.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Finally, since you "think the notion of using the military's SPEC for civilian purchased rifles is not realistic", what do you suggest instead?
    I actually think your chart is a pretty good start. But what it needs is proper methods for inspection with examples, even for things like staking (I wouldn't have thought such until I saw BM staking compared to Colt and now LMT MIM key staking.) But other things too, like what is a proper M4 feed ramp in the barrel extension and lower receiver.

    I think IG had the sanest response so far, looking at actual failure rates. Like in the ammo review sections of TOS, there are informal polls relating to experiences with each brand and cartirdge. Maybe that needs to be done for the different brands of ARs, where actual users relate their field experiences. A type of Consumer Reports for ARs.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    because this thread was never intended to debate quality. as i said previously, for the purposes of this thread- lesser quality guns are to be considered lesser quality. if you feel like your lesser quality gun isn't, in fact, lesser quality, don't post.. because all you're (i'm using "you" and "you're" in a general sense) going to do is start more arguing.
    Your argument is right there. Don't make me pull out the college logic course. Quality is in the eye of the beholder.

    Quote Originally Posted by guns4fun View Post
    Maybe i'm just missing the boat - but i don't think i was arguing that my lesser quaility AR's are just as good as a top tier AR. However, my point was that you never stated "fighting weapon". Not everyone buys an AR to be a fighting weapon. I am not trying to start an argument - i'm just stating why I / others might buy a lesser AR - like your thread question asked.

    I bought my "lesser" quality AR's because they cost less. Simple as that. I dont need a Colt, LMT, Noveske, etc to take my son (14) to the range and let him put 100 rnds down range. His Stag does just fine for that.

    I own 2 colts - 6920 and 6933 and a BCM middy. Those would be my go to guns if the shtf. But for general plinking, a Stag, bushmaster, RRA, etc is good enough.

    Again, to answer your question, not everyone needs a top tier weapon for plinking. If it was their only AR, i'd highly suggest they spend the few hundred dollars more and get a top tier. However, if they already have their basics covered, a lower tier AR isn't a problem for just plinking.

    That is why i buy what i buy.
    I think I missed the boat too; Probably because I do not think of my AR as my go to weapon when I hear a bump in the middle of the night. Even without my AR I am well healed in the self defense department.

  3. #93
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    I just ordered yesterday an MP15X ( Thanks G&R tactical). The reasons were price and because I owned a MP15T last year and thought it was great. No issues ( for the little I shot it ) and at 100yds it grouped just barely over an inch with 55gr & 75gr Wolf.

    The reason I bought the MP15T was due to the article last April in SWAT magazine by Pat Rogers. He had 3 MP15 rifles with decent round counts and no major issues.

    I also liked all the extras that came standard on the 15T & 15X.

  4. #94
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    i didn't state anywhere that you could or could not post about your non-fighting gun, did i?

    the criteria for posting in this thread: You bought a lower tier weapon before you knew better, please tell us the story.

    you can post any mother ****in gun you want.

    what YOU'RE refering to was me saying: If you want to try to argue that your gun is NOT lower tier- first of all, don't do it in this thread. Secondly, don't do so unless you bought it with reliability as a first priority, because nobody cares why you bought a beer-can killer.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    i didn't state anywhere that you could or could not post about your non-fighting gun, did i?

    the criteria for posting in this thread: You bought a lower tier weapon before you knew better, please tell us the story.

    you can post any mother ****in gun you want.

    what YOU'RE refering to was me saying: If you want to try to argue that your gun is NOT lower tier- first of all, don't do it in this thread. Secondly, don't do so unless you bought it with reliability as a first priority, because nobody cares why you bought a beer-can killer.
    Last edited by CryingWolf; 07-02-09 at 21:18.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by guns4fun View Post
    Not everyone buys an AR to be a fighting weapon.
    It has always been my general assumption that this site is based on fighting weapons. When you are discussing weapons here there should be no need to make a distinction between plinker and life-taker/saver.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogoodnamesleft View Post
    I think IG had the sanest response so far, looking at actual failure rates. Like in the ammo review sections of TOS, there are informal polls relating to experiences with each brand and cartirdge. Maybe that needs to be done for the different brands of ARs, where actual users relate their field experiences. A type of Consumer Reports for ARs.
    Those threads are of such little value it's not even worth participating in. With no way to verify what's posted there and no idea who's posting, the results can easily be skewed.

    All of this comes down to giving people the basic information to decide for themselves. For me, and in my mind, talking with people that see hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange every year, people that have BEEN to Colt's plant, supervising my own little slice of shooters and rounds downrange, and my own experience with my own guns and those I've sold, I KNOW that Colt makes a better product. Ultimately I don't care what someone else buys, until they show up at a class I'm in, or an event I'm running, and screw things up for everyone else while they're sidelined with their POS. Ultimately I don't care if it's pixie dust that Colt sprinkles on their guns, they just flat work. The Chart, and my inquisitive nature that led to it, is the culmination of me attempting to quantify and qualify the market, but it's never going to be good enough for everyone. People need to read the explanation of features, follow the links included therein, and educate themselves. Or they can just buy the Colt to begin with and be done.

    The goal of forums, charts, etc. should be to try and impart as much of that information as possible to people without them having to go through all of that, especially when they may simply be unable. Unfortunately there's a huge segment of the market that bought first and asked questions later, have virtually no experience of consequence, and who's only goal is to justify their own purchase in their mind.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryingWolf View Post
    do you think i'll shit my pants over some color?

    here's my target gun. usually wears a leupold 3x9, but that got moved to a difference weapon.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogoodnamesleft View Post
    Does BM barrel steel meet MIL-B-1195-E? Good luck getting that out of BM.
    Have you ever tried? You might be surprised what they are willing to tell you if you find the right person at the company and work your way past the idiot answering the phone, or representing the company on an internet forum.

    A member of TOS recently took it upon himself to discover what steel Armalite was using in their barrels. He damn near got himself banned from there for doing it, but ultimately the lackey that represents Armalite on the forums went and found somebody that actually knows and shared the information. If you look at the current Chart you'll see that they have a different spec in their column, but it's still a spec nonetheless, and the only reason the information is there is because someone hounded them and got the answer.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunderway View Post
    It has always been my general assumption that this site is based on fighting weapons. When you are discussing weapons here there should be no need to make a distinction between plinker and life-taker/saver.
    "The purpose of M4Carbine.net is to provide a forum to share professional and technical information with the shooting community. The forum is open to military, law enforcement, and recreational shooters."

    I would say there is quiet a few members who fall into the last category.

    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    do you think i'll shit my pants over some color?

    here's my target gun. usually wears a leupold 3x9, but that got moved to a difference weapon.
    I think I pooped a little.

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