So does it work or not?

[Pathfinder Ops]

I will have to agree with TacMedic4450 and disagree with most on here on the CPR issue. I have a few Life Save ribbons and certificates to prove that CPR does work and that patients can walk out of the hospital and continue thier lives. My father-in-law is a prime example. He is retired out of the Army and has been so for around 15 years, he is very overwieght, and does not follow any type of fitness routine. While in FL for work he went into cardiac arrest in the parking lot of a restraunt and his coworkers performed CPR. Poorly I might add, as one of them even stated that he did a Precordial Thump because he saw it done on TV and they inserted a pocket knife in his mouth to open the airway. The Med Unit arrived 8 minutes later and attempted intubatiuon and IV therapy and were unsuccesful on both counts. They continued with much better CPR and O2 and transported. He walked out 9 days later. So, immediate CPR + no O2 + no Meds + total time from collapse to EC being over 20 minutes = Save. I know it's not typical but it does happen.

Another case. I ran back up to another unit where the patient went into CA in a gym. Two people began CPR immediately (Trauma Surgeon and Cardiologist, what luck huh!) and the first unit shocked on scene. We arrived and a second shock was delivered. When I went to establish an IV access point the patient tried to sit up on the stretcher and said "what the hell are you doin'!". Before leaving the scene he had told us all the info we needed and how to contact his wife. He is still alive today (happened about 5 years ago) and he is doing well. I talked with him two weeks later and he actually told me everything that had happened form the instant that he collapsed until he "woke up". Sounds crazy but I was the only person that he had talked to that had been there and when I asked the first in medics about what he said, they agreed with all of it. I now take a different approach to what I say in front of all patients, living or deceased.

The discussion is TRAUMA ARRESTS. I've been a Paramedic since 1990 and have never seen nor do I know a single medic that has had a successful TRAUMA ARREST. And what I mean by successful is they walk out of the hospital.

Never, not once.

It's a myth and not worth banking time and energy on. Medicine in a gun fight is about what is appropriate at the time and based on historic responses to known treatment modalities in that type incident.

What works occasionally in the back of your conventional EMS rig has no promise in tactical combat casualty care.

[HowardCohodas]

TCCC (Tactical Combat Casualty Care) Curriculum including slides, videos, instructor guides, skills sheets and practical exercises.

http://www.health.mil/Pages/Page.aspx?ID=34

[Jay Cunningham]

VERY interesting thread, fellas.

[Joe_Friday]

The discussion NEVER mentions this being a TRAUMA ARREST per the OP and states that in his class he was taught to perform CPR and was told by someone else that it was basically useless.

"CPR: Based on what my friend relayed and what I read here in the "when your patient dies" thread, it sounds like CPR has an almost 0% success rate. WTFO? Is that a matter of timing -- professional rescuers arrive too late for it to matter, but someone on the scene at the moment of arrest might be able to make a difference -- or is it really just a feel-good thing that people learn to say they've learned it?"

Only later was Trauma Arrests discussed by others. My post was to the OP.

Frankly I am shocked that on a public forum any healthcare PROFESSIONAL would basically tell the world not to perform CPR on someone. By coming on a public forum you have basically told the people who believe everything they read on the internet that it is OK not to perform CPR on ANYONE, because it would not help. That is definitely not the case and if you have never had a "life save" then your credentials are seriously out of wack. I respect what you have accomplished and am happy that you have a business that supports your thoughts and what you have been taught but please be a little more courteous next time and please read the OP's original question before bashing someone.

The discussion is TRAUMA ARRESTS. I've been a Paramedic since 1990 and have never seen nor do I know a single medic that has had a successful TRAUMA ARREST. And what I mean by successful is they walk out of the hospital.

Never, not once.

It's a myth and not worth banking time and energy on. Medicine in a gun fight is about what is appropriate at the time and based on historic responses to known treatment modalities in that type incident.

What works occasionally in the back of your conventional EMS rig has no promise in tactical combat casualty care.

[Gutshot John]

The discussion NEVER mentions this being a TRAUMA ARREST per the OP and states that in his class he was taught to perform CPR and was told by someone else that it was basically useless.

Woah...slow down Sparky. I said that it's never worked in MY experience and I made it perfectly clear that CPR has never worked for me. I did say that with ALS odds improve. I also made it EXPLICITLY clear that when dealing with hemorrhage/shock, CPR was not going to change anything. So I did make a distinction that you should maybe acknowledge.

"CPR: Based on what my friend relayed and what I read here in the "when your patient dies" thread, it sounds like CPR has an almost 0% success rate. WTFO? Is that a matter of timing -- professional rescuers arrive too late for it to matter, but someone on the scene at the moment of arrest might be able to make a difference -- or is it really just a feel-good thing that people learn to say they've learned it?"

CPR/BLS for me does have a zero success rate, and that while it might be effective if someone was right there, I also made it quite clear that I was speaking of my experience, YMMV.

Only later was Trauma Arrests discussed by others. My post was to the OP.

No I mentioned in post #2

Frankly I am shocked that on a public forum any healthcare PROFESSIONAL would basically tell the world not to perform CPR on someone.

I'm a little shocked that you didn't take the time to actually read what was said. Claiming that I told someone NOT to perform CPR is absurd. You're putting way too many words in mine and others' mouths.

By coming on a public forum you have basically told the people who believe everything they read on the internet that it is OK not to perform CPR on ANYONE, because it would not help. That is definitely not the case and if you have never had a "life save" then your credentials are seriously out of wack. I respect what you have accomplished and am happy that you have a business that supports your thoughts and what you have been taught but please be a little more courteous next time and please read the OP's original question before bashing someone.

I've had more than a few saves and so I wouldn't presume so much.

Pathfinder Ops is pretty much spot-on...based on my experience.

[Joe_Friday]

Gutshot John, I was not neccesarily posting about you, but you do make it sound as if CPR is not going to help (had my wife read it without her knowing what was going on and that is also what she got out of it). I was referring to Pathfinder Ops and Todd G. Todd G because he was the OP and made no mention of TRAUMA ARREST (all caps because thats how PO likes to put it when making emphasis apparently) and PO jumping in and basically stating that I had no idea of what I am talking about and generally posted a lie. I have no reason to lie and no need to impress anyone.

Again, my post was intended for the original poster and he NEVER mentioned TRAUMA ARREST. Pathfinder Ops is "pretty much spot on" regarding trauma arrests but that is not what was asked.

[ToddG]

Again, I genuinely appreciate the benefit of everyone's experience, especially when it becomes divergent. Given the great information this thread has generated, I'd please ask that the "I said" ... "no you didn't" stuff find its way to PMs, etc.

[Pathfinder Ops]

The discussion NEVER mentions this being a TRAUMA ARREST per the OP and states that in his class he was taught to perform CPR and was told by someone else that it was basically useless.

"CPR: Based on what my friend relayed and what I read here in the "when your patient dies" thread, it sounds like CPR has an almost 0% success rate. WTFO? Is that a matter of timing -- professional rescuers arrive too late for it to matter, but someone on the scene at the moment of arrest might be able to make a difference -- or is it really just a feel-good thing that people learn to say they've learned it?"

Only later was Trauma Arrests discussed by others. My post was to the OP.

Frankly I am shocked that on a public forum any healthcare PROFESSIONAL would basically tell the world not to perform CPR on someone. By coming on a public forum you have basically told the people who believe everything they read on the internet that it is OK not to perform CPR on ANYONE, because it would not help. That is definitely not the case and if you have never had a "life save" then your credentials are seriously out of wack. I respect what you have accomplished and am happy that you have a business that supports your thoughts and what you have been taught but please be a little more courteous next time and please read the OP's original question before bashing someone.

First of all I never said CPR does not work in the conventional sense.

My point is and I remain solid behind it is that in a trauma arrest circumstance CPR is a no go and the rescuer as an asset is best used to save the Living.

I also never said you didn't know what you were talking about. I merely stated the facts of TCCC. You don't have to like that information. But those are the theories being taught by PROFESSIONALS in the business. Not just me.

Yes I've had saves in conventional non trauma situations.

You are putting words in peoples mouths and questioning credentials when what you should be doing is checking facts before you attack peoples responses to a forum post that addresses more than one specific event.

I never once spoke about anything other than TRAUMA related issues.

[Pathfinder Ops]

Again, I genuinely appreciate the benefit of everyone's experience, especially when it becomes divergent. Given the great information this thread has generated, I'd please ask that the "I said" ... "no you didn't" stuff find its way to PMs, etc.

Agreed and I apologize for participating in middle school behaviors.

GUTSHOT John:
10-4 to you.