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Thread: Major Extraction Failures Today! (Updates About Gun & SW Customer Service)

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    the moment you tell them you were using wolf the conversation will be over, you realize..

    i suggest either lying and telling them it was happening with xm193, or just getting the chamber reamed on your own dime. since i'm a devout deontologist, i'd go with the latter..
    Thanks for the vocabulary expansion!

    For any others who are interested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deontological_ethics

    Buckaroo
    "It is better to be a Warrior in a Garden than a Gardner in a War"
    Let's use the First Amendment to protect the Second so we can avoid using the Second to protect the First.

  2. #42
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    Yea I was going to say thank you for the vocab expansion too.

    You really think they would say that? No where in the owners manual did it state not to use Wolf ammunition.

  3. #43
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    Lube suggestion:

    Use Breakfree LP generously on the bolt carrier group, i.e. lugs, cam pin area, gas rings, carrier rails.

    Use Breakfree CLP lightly on the firing pin.

    Use Breakfree CLP everywhere else.

    The LP is just like the CLP except it does not contain the cleaning solvent, so it is thicker. It stays in place better but still won't gunk up your gun. ARs will run dirty and wet, but not dirty and dry.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmcmanus View Post
    Yea I was going to say thank you for the vocab expansion too.

    You really think they would say that? No where in the owners manual did it state not to use Wolf ammunition.
    manufacturers love to dodge warranty service with wolf. i got a dollar says they'll say something to the effect of "our weapons are designed for and tested with quality factory brass-cased ammunition. it's not recommended that foreign steel cased ammo be used for the reason you're having problems. You say it worked fine with brass ammo? well there you go, don't use wolf."

    might even throw in some reasons like "oh that wolf stuff is really bad ammunition, and doesn't work in most guns," or use any of the explainations presented here in this thread. and, considering the advice posted here- would they be incorrect? in my opinion, yes- but i am but one man.

    if it was my stick, i'd just get the chamber reamed. if the reaming produces no/minimal shavings, it's something else... but i suspect that'll fix it right up.

  5. #45
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    This is a quote from a stickie in another AR forum (don't want to post a link, as it's a competitor)

    "Wolf is steel case polymer coated ammo. Barnaul, Brown Bear and Monarch are all lacquer coated steel case ammo. Golden Bear is brass coated steel case ammo. None of the coatings is the problem with steel case ammo, it's the steel case. The steel doesn't expand as far as brass so some of the carbon from the barrel blows back around the steel case and sticks to the chamber wall.

    If you use brass case ammo after using one of these you will probably have a stoppage. The brass expands as it usually does and the carbon from the steel case ammo will stick to the fully expanded brass and fail to extract.

    Some AR15 type weapons will work with steel case ammo and some will not. There is no way to know if yours will unless and until you try it. I recommend that any person new to the AR15 platform or using steel case ammo for the first time to buy only one box until you have tried steel case ammo and have found that your rifle or carbine will function with it."

    It's a pretty common problem with ARs and steel cases.
    Colt SP6920, LE6920, 6720
    BCM Lower/ARP 6.8SPC upper for hog hunting
    DD M4V5 clone, Troy 5.56 Carbine, S&W M&P10
    PSA Lower/BCM LW 16" middie CHF upper
    PSA Lower/BCM LW 14.5" middie upper
    2 PSA 18"6.8 rifles, PSA 20" M16A4 clone
    Remington 870, Remington 700VTR
    SA XDm9, XDm9C, , XD9SC S&W 1911
    Ruger GP100, Hawkeye77 Compact 6.8SPC
    Kel-Tec KSG, Marlin 336 30-30, HK 45C, VP9
    Sig 1911 Tacops, Scorpion 1911, M11A1, P226 Mk25

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by fdxpilot View Post
    It's a pretty common problem with ARs and steel cases.
    because QC problems are common with ARs, even good ARs. this shouldn't just be accepted, in my opinion. wolf works in the majority of guns, and those guns it doesn't work in should be scrutinized to find out why.

  7. #47
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    I contacted them today, haven't heard back from them. I left the ammo out to see if they bring it up specifically.

    My issue with the chamber reaming is simple, I bought the gun based off of info on this site about M&P's being true 5.56, combined with SW's own claims. If the gun is still under warranty, and they mis-represented their product, then they have an obligation to correct the error. Am I wrong? I personally don't feel I should have to pay for something twice simply because the manufacturer mis-represented their product. that is why I'm not just going to ship it off to be reamed out on my dime.

  8. #48
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    Just Got My M&P15 Back

    Hey Everyone,

    A few of you asked me to update this thread and keep everyone informed about the progress regarding solving these extraction failures. I would like to thank IraqGunz for the personal correspondence he offered, and his suggestions.

    Update:

    After this thread I contacted S&W through email explaining the problem. I explained everything, however I left out the fact that I was shooting Wolf Ammo. After about a day without a reply, I was sent a message that simply stated that I call CS and have them send out a shipping label. Thus began the great: "Gun Box Hunt of 2009" (which is another story all together, lesson learned: save my box).

    While I was looking for the box and waiting on the shipping label I decided to take the gun to the range to try and repeat the failure. I wanted pictures for this board, and possibly for SW, however I wasn't able to get the gun to fail again.

    After finally sending the gun back last week, it arrived at my house this morning in a new shipping box (that I will collapse and save). I took the gun out and before opening the letter from S&W I wanted to look everything over and see if I could notice if anything was changed. The first thing I noticed was that they had oiled the hell out of the trigger group, and that my front BIS was deployed, meaning they had to have test fired it prior to shipping it back.

    I opened up the gun, and smelled fresh powder but noticed that the rifle was clean. After pulling the BCG, I noticed that the ramps were polished, and that the chamber actually looked brand new. I knew they hadn't just glanced over it and thrown it in the box and shipped it back (which is what I was worried about since the rifle was only at their shop for a total of three days maximum).

    After opening the letter this is what SW listed as their repairs:

    1. "Replaced Recoil Spring" I am assuming this is the buffer spring. After reading this I noticed that they had actually removed the buffer tube, and my stock (and re-pinned the stock). There were no old staking marks on the carrier key so I am assuming they replaced this too. My only complaint on this end is that when the re-staked everything they hit my upper slightly and went through the anodized finish.

    I have never pulled a buffer spring out. I am wondering if they put in an H buffer? How can I tell this?

    2. "Adjust Gas Ports" Not sure what they mean by this. The Gas Key looks the same on the BCG.

    3. "Polished Ramp on BBL" I am assuming this is the feed ramps. I noticed this when I took the gun apart.

    4. "Hone Chamber" Considering that the chamber looked new, I am assuming that they reamed it to a true 556.

    Other then a legal pamphlet about the Youth Handgun Safety Act, and an orange safety stopper in the chamber, this is all SW sent back to me. There was no signature of the gun smith on the form listing repairs, but there is a number to call to inquire if need be.

    After re-assembling the gun I chambered two rounds and ejected them in order to see if the scratches that were on every casing, and ejected round prior to shipping the gun were there. I am happy to report that they aren't, but am aware of the fact that two rounds doesn't really mean anything. I will be going to a range either today (if I finish my freelance work) or tomorrow to see how the gun functions. I will update everyone as soon as I am back. One thing I am curious about (that is superficial and easy to fix, but I still want to know) is if gun held its zero throughout all of this.

  9. #49
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    DMC, this gives me a heads up on my mp15.. good thread.

    On the subject of oiling, being new I found this, is Sinclair bolt grease or tetra a good idea to use like this guy applied?

    http://tinyurl.com/no6w6q

  10. #50
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    Range Report

    So I don't know if anyone at all is following this but I would love if I could get some of the mods and armorers on the forum to weigh in on these last two updates.

    I finally had a chance to go out and shoot the rifle today. The area of the country I am in has been in an almost perpetual state of rain, and today was the first nice day I had a chance to get away. Unfortunately the round count wasn't as high as it could have been, but I was able to send 80 rounds down range in a short period of time. I brought a mix of PRVI and Wolf (I wanted to see if the Wolf would act up after the brass). Alternating between rapid fire of five rounds at a time, and slow shots spaced out.

    I am happy to report that not only did I have zero issues, but that the gun felt considerably smoother.

    (please read my above post for the changes that S&W did to the rifle)

    One thing I did notice was that the recoil was almost non-existent where as before I could feel a slight jolt after pulling the trigger, then an subtle clunk as the bolt hit home. At first I thought it was a placebo effect, but after a while I realized that the gun was actually cycling better. I am assuming that this has to do with the S&W replacing the "recoil spring" (buffer I am assuming) as I do not see why the changes to the chamber would have done anything regarding the recoil.

    I also had zero issues with extraction. I checked as many of the spent casings as I could find and I noticed that on both the steal and brass there were none of the visible grooves that were apparent prior to sending the gun back. All and all it was a good day...

    A few questions I have for the experts though is how can I tell what S&W meant/did when they said they adjusted the gas port, and replaced the "recoil spring"? I can assemble and disassemble this rifle, I took out the buffer and spring for the first time yesterday, ect, but I have a very limited knowledge of all of the advanced and intermediate technical aspects of the rifle. How can I tell if they put an H buffer in, or if they just replaced a faulty Carbine Buffer? Did they drill out the gas port, or potentially do something else completely? I realize none of you can know any of this without seeing the rifle, but any thoughts (or pics of an H buffer vs. Carbine) would be much appreciated.

    Thank you for your time.

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