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Thread: Major Extraction Failures Today! (Updates About Gun & SW Customer Service)

  1. #51
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    Adjusting the gas port means that they more than likely opened it up some. As for honing the chamber I can only speculate that they reamed it possibly because it was more than likely tight.

    If you look at the face of the buffer itself and it is plain, then it is a carbine buffer. If it has an "H" then it's a "H" buffer and so on.



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  2. #52
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    Thanks Iraqgunz.

    I figured that without replacing the barrel itself that the only thing they could do regarding adjusting the gas was open up the gas port, you can't add material. Maybe the problem was a combination of too little gas, and a tight chamber. Thanks. As for the buffer it's a carbine then as there is no H

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmcmanus View Post
    Hey Everyone,

    A few of you asked me to update this thread and keep everyone informed about the progress regarding solving these extraction failures. I would like to thank IraqGunz for the personal correspondence he offered, and his suggestions.

    Update:

    After this thread I contacted S&W through email explaining the problem. I explained everything, however I left out the fact that I was shooting Wolf Ammo. After about a day without a reply, I was sent a message that simply stated that I call CS and have them send out a shipping label. Thus began the great: "Gun Box Hunt of 2009" (which is another story all together, lesson learned: save my box).

    While I was looking for the box and waiting on the shipping label I decided to take the gun to the range to try and repeat the failure. I wanted pictures for this board, and possibly for SW, however I wasn't able to get the gun to fail again.

    After finally sending the gun back last week, it arrived at my house this morning in a new shipping box (that I will collapse and save). I took the gun out and before opening the letter from S&W I wanted to look everything over and see if I could notice if anything was changed. The first thing I noticed was that they had oiled the hell out of the trigger group, and that my front BIS was deployed, meaning they had to have test fired it prior to shipping it back.

    I opened up the gun, and smelled fresh powder but noticed that the rifle was clean. After pulling the BCG, I noticed that the ramps were polished, and that the chamber actually looked brand new. I knew they hadn't just glanced over it and thrown it in the box and shipped it back (which is what I was worried about since the rifle was only at their shop for a total of three days maximum).

    After opening the letter this is what SW listed as their repairs:

    1. "Replaced Recoil Spring" I am assuming this is the buffer spring. After reading this I noticed that they had actually removed the buffer tube, and my stock (and re-pinned the stock). There were no old staking marks on the carrier key so I am assuming they replaced this too. My only complaint on this end is that when the re-staked everything they hit my upper slightly and went through the anodized finish. They should have staked your end-plate to the castle nut. It would have been a MAJOR FAIL if they marred your upper since the the end plate only contacts the lower.

    I have never pulled a buffer spring out. I am wondering if they put in an H buffer? How can I tell this? The H buffer will have "H" stamped on the face (the part that gets hammered by the bolt carrier).

    2. "Adjust Gas Ports" Not sure what they mean by this. The Gas Key looks the same on the BCG. There is a gas port (singular) in the barrel under the front sight base or gas block. The only way to "adjust" this is to drill the port larger. Not sure if this is a common "repair". I'd assume it's a bit more labor/technique intensive for most warranty repairs, but would probably improve reliability if the port was undersized to begin with. I'm not a gunsmith or armorer so I may be completely wrong on this.

    3. "Polished Ramp on BBL" I am assuming this is the feed ramps. I noticed this when I took the gun apart.

    4. "Hone Chamber" Considering that the chamber looked new, I am assuming that they reamed it to a true 556.

    Other then a legal pamphlet about the Youth Handgun Safety Act, and an orange safety stopper in the chamber, this is all SW sent back to me. There was no signature of the gun smith on the form listing repairs, but there is a number to call to inquire if need be.

    After re-assembling the gun I chambered two rounds and ejected them in order to see if the scratches that were on every casing, and ejected round prior to shipping the gun were there. I am happy to report that they aren't, but am aware of the fact that two rounds doesn't really mean anything. I will be going to a range either today (if I finish my freelance work) or tomorrow to see how the gun functions. I will update everyone as soon as I am back. One thing I am curious about (that is superficial and easy to fix, but I still want to know) is if gun held its zero throughout all of this.
    See text in RED above.

  4. #54
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    Since they didn't get into specifics of the problem my guess is they did what most companies do. They applied a known reliability package. "These are the things we know fix virtually every problem a customer has had". Instead of trial and error they do it all in one fell swoop from experience. That's just my guess but it's the most efficient way to get a gun 100% and back to the customer quickly. Beats sending it back and forth multiple times.

    Hehe Springfield Armory is like that with handguns. Tell them the grip makes your hand itch and I bet they'd still replace springs and polish the ramp.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmcmanus View Post
    1. "Replaced Recoil Spring" I am assuming this is the buffer spring. After reading this I noticed that they had actually removed the buffer tube, and my stock (and re-pinned the stock). There were no old staking marks on the carrier key so I am assuming they replaced this too. My only complaint on this end is that when the re-staked everything they hit my upper slightly and went through the anodized finish.
    I have never pulled a buffer spring out. I am wondering if they put in an H buffer? How can I tell this?
    The buffer will have the letter "H" on it. To my knowledge, S&W does not have any H buffers (did not see any when I was at their facility).

    2. "Adjust Gas Ports" Not sure what they mean by this. The Gas Key looks the same on the BCG.
    The gas ports on the barrel was most likely the wrong size so the might have opened it up a bit.

    3. "Polished Ramp on BBL" I am assuming this is the feed ramps. I noticed this when I took the gun apart.
    They did this just to make sure that everything will feed.

    4. "Hone Chamber" Considering that the chamber looked new, I am assuming that they reamed it to a true 556.
    They reamed the chamber as it was most likely closer to the .223 side than it was to the 556 side.

    The issue with your gun was most likely three fold. They are:

    1. Tight chamber
    2. Gas port that was on the small side so the gun did not have enough gas to drive the BCG back far enough (short stroking).
    3. Wolf ammo (being steel cased) allows extra residue to build up in the chamber which in turn caused stuck casings.


    C4

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mamma View Post
    I think the problem is that you simply have a very dirty chamber from the Wolf ammo.

    As someone mentioned earlier, the Wolf steel casing is not as flexible as brass, and doesn't expand/seal as well when you fire it. You can get a lot of crap blowing into the chamber. Different guns behave differently when this happens--some are not affected and some don't work.

    It also sounds like your extractor/extractor spring are fine. I 'm sure the extractor could use a good cleaning though.

    Joe Mamma
    this.

  7. #57
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    Actually I don't think it is as simple as that. My guess is that S&W made the fixes based on previous customer issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by dsg2003gt View Post
    this.



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

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  8. #58
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    Grant and IraqGunz,

    Thank you for your time in helping me understand what exactly they did to my rifle. I am learning more and more about this platform every time I fire it, take it apart, clean it, and then read here. This has been very helpful.

    One thing that is interesting is that they must have either re-zeroed the rifle, or taken GREAT care in replacing the gas block because it was dead on yesterday. SInce I have a railed block with the front BIS on it. I did notice a slight scuff/slide mark up the barrel that I thought suggested they removed the block. It wiped away with a rag though.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmcmanus View Post

    The guys I was shooting with were mostly career military, and they told me not to be to worried about. The one with the most knowledge told me early on that he thought the gun was over oiled. We field stripped the weapon after the second failure, and the extractor was filthy, whipped it off and shot about 45 rounds through it before the last failure.

    Another thing you need to realize in all this is being in the military is not a qualification to be an expert on these matters.

    What these guys told you is complete bullshit and they have no clue how a rifle works other than how to load and fire it which is what they were taught in the military.
    "Not every thing on Earth requires an aftermarket upgrade." demigod/markm

  10. #60
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    Yes I became aware of that after this incident and other discussions I have recently had with other people who have served.
    Last edited by Mac5.56; 08-04-09 at 20:41. Reason: semantics

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