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Thread: Are MG prices dropping?

  1. #41
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    i dont know why you guys are so into these over priced so called "nfa" guns, especially when you can just convert your gun you already own

  2. #42
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    Steyr,

    In your opinion when do you think it would be appropriate to use or employ an HK MP5 rather than an 11.5 or 12.5 inch M4 type weapon?

    A pistol is almost always carried for convenience purposes and because walking around the local Walmart, bank, supermarket, whatever with an M4 across the back would be impractical and unwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    A SMG is not supposed to be an assault rifle and it sure as hell ain't a pistol. Your statement is about like me dismissing the M-16 because I can't put it in my pocket like I can a Glock.

    Assault rifles do things no SMG or handgun can do.

    SMGs do things no assault rifle or handgun can do.

    Handguns do things no assault rifle or SMG can do.

    An experienced person knows what those things are and selects the most appropriate tool for the job at hand.
    Last edited by Iraqgunz; 07-21-09 at 15:41.



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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    A SMG is not supposed to be an assault rifle and it sure as hell ain't a pistol. Your statement is about like me dismissing the M-16 because I can't put it in my pocket like I can a Glock.

    Assault rifles do things no SMG or handgun can do.

    SMGs do things no assault rifle or handgun can do.

    Handguns do things no assault rifle or SMG can do.

    An experienced person knows what those things are and selects the most appropriate tool for the job at hand.
    Please enlighten us.

    Other than suppressing, what does an MP5 do better than a Mk18 or similar short-barreled, rifle caliber carbine? I can think of a bunch of things that the Mk18 does a lot better than the MP5.

  4. #44
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    Because the MP5 is so handy and is easily suppressed Ken Hackathorn told me he thought it was much more useful in a lot of CQB environments where shorty .223s are now more fashionable. He called it "superbowl syndrome."
    Last edited by Greg Bell; 07-21-09 at 21:53.
    If you aren't armed when you take a dump in your own home then your opinion on what is a practical daily carry weapon isn't interesting to me.

  5. #45
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    Greg,

    That may be. However when one looks at the cost of an MP5 to that of a quality M4 and the fact that 9MM overpentrates more than 5.56 (CQB generally is an urban environment) and the fact that an M4 can be suppressed as well, although it's louder the M4 seems to make more sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Bell View Post
    Because the MP5 is so handy and is easily suppressed Ken Hackathorn told me he thought it was much more useful in a lot of CQB environments where shorty .223s are now more fashionable. He called it "superbowl syndrome."



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Greg,

    That may be. However when one looks at the cost of an MP5 to that of a quality M4 and the fact that 9MM overpentrates more than 5.56 (CQB generally is an urban environment) and the fact that an M4 can be suppressed as well, although it's louder the M4 seems to make more sense.
    Not to mention:

    1. Superior wound ballistics
    2. Ability to penetrate soft armor (which can be a negative as well)
    3. Greater effective range if required
    4. Better ergonomics/ease of manipulation

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbrowne1 View Post
    Please enlighten us.

    Other than suppressing, what does an MP5 do better than a Mk18 or similar short-barreled, rifle caliber carbine? I can think of a bunch of things that the Mk18 does a lot better than the MP5.
    Well better suppression is one.

    And despite the FBI "materials test" in the real world 5.56 has much greater penetration than 9mm so if you had to pick out the "bad guys" in a room full of friendlies 9mm is less risky to bystanders. Conversely if you 'wanted' better penetration the reverse is true.

    The MP5 has BB gun recoil (not the that 5.56 kicks a LOT but there is a difference) so it is better at rapid follow up shots and rapid engagement of multiple targets. Also the MP5 in full auto is far more controllable.

    The MP5 is also a lighter platform in terms of weight.

    And while it isn't usually a factory, you can carry more ammo in terms of weight. But in nearly every case where you are gonna take a "long walk" you will want a longer distance weapon than the MP5.

    I think in terms of hostage rescue (unless they are wearing armor) and most home defense scenarios (which can sometimes turn into hostage rescue) the MP5 or a similar SMG or pistol caliber carbine has distinct advantages over the M4 or a similar 5.56 carbine.

    So while a M4 is a better "jack of all trades" tool (which is why our guys aren't issued MP5s as a primary weapon) the MP5 remains a better "mission specific" tool for certain scenarios.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Greg,

    That may be. However when one looks at the cost of an MP5 to that of a quality M4 and the fact that 9MM overpentrates more than 5.56 (CQB generally is an urban environment) and the fact that an M4 can be suppressed as well, although it's louder the M4 seems to make more sense.
    The MP5 is about the same price as the M4, unless we are talking about "transferables." And the FBI materials test is the ONLY test I've seen where 9mm over penetrates 5.56 and I wonder if the tests were conducted to produce such a result so the FBI could switch from the MP5 to the M4.

    In every "real world" example I've seen 5.56 dramatically over penetrates 9mm. Try it yourself.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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  9. #49
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    im no expert here but, in all the tests ive seen, if your looking for a very low penetrating round, i cant think of a much better option then the 55gr TAP loads. That round appears to pretty much hit a target and then virtually explode at VERY shallow levels of penetration. I dont feel like digging up the thread but, im gonna say it starts to fragment rapidly around 5in of penetration. I dont know of any 9mm rounds that will do this. Perhaps some of the pre fragmented rounds?
    Last edited by Mr.Goodtimes; 07-22-09 at 15:38.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Goodtimes View Post
    im no expert here but, in all the tests ive seen, if your looking for a very low penetrating round, i cant think of a much better option then the 55gr TAP loads. That round appears to pretty much hit a target and then virtually explode at VERY shallow levels of penetration. I dont feel like digging up the thread but, im gonna say it starts to fragment rapidly around 5in of penetration. I dont know of any 9mm rounds that will do this. Perhaps some of the pre fragmented rounds?

    I'm talking about regular old 55 gr. LC vs. 115 gr. 9mm Luger.

    But don't take my word for it, make a basic rack to hold 10 2x4s and shoot them with both and see what happens.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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