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Thread: Are MG prices dropping?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    I'm talking about regular old 55 gr. LC vs. 115 gr. 9mm Luger.

    But don't take my word for it, make a basic rack to hold 10 2x4s and shoot them with both and see what happens.
    there was a show on a couple of weeks ago,best defense i think,that did exactly that.they built 4 "walls" with a 2x4 frame and 2 pieces of 1/2" drywall per wall,just like in your house,spaced them about 10' apart and then shot through them from about 20ft from the first wall.9mm and .45acp handguns and .223 55grn. and 12 ga. 00 buck.9mm was the worst round for penetration.the .223 fared the best i believe for penetration through the walls.

    most walls are just drywall,not 2x4's.the chances of hitting a 2x4 are pretty small actually.penetration into 10 2x4's stacked back to back will be different than penetration through drywall.

    YMMV

  2. #52
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    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

    We then replaced the sheetrock with something tougher, 3/4 inch Ponderosa Pine boards.

    9MM JHP (Federal) - 8 boards, bounced off 9th.

    Twelve pine boards will not stop a .223 round.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

    We then replaced the sheetrock with something tougher, 3/4 inch Ponderosa Pine boards.

    9MM JHP (Federal) - 8 boards, bounced off 9th.

    Twelve pine boards will not stop a .223 round.
    How many people have walls made of pine boards?

    Also, more importantly, how much wounding ability did each bullet retain after penetrating 1, 2, 3, etc. boards? The important difference between them is how much energy they lose by going through barriers. 5.56mm consistently loses much more energy even after passing through very "weak" barriers like glass, sheetrock, etc.

    In other words, if you want to do a valid test you need to put some ballistic gelatin on the other side of the barriers.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbrowne1 View Post
    How many people have walls made of pine boards?

    Also, more importantly, how much wounding ability did each bullet retain after penetrating 1, 2, 3, etc. boards? The important difference between them is how much energy they lose by going through barriers. 5.56mm consistently loses much more energy even after passing through very "weak" barriers like glass, sheetrock, etc.

    In other words, if you want to do a valid test you need to put some ballistic gelatin on the other side of the barriers.

    Well after passing through 12 "wood barriers" the 5.56 still had enough energy to continue, the 9mm had lost energy after the 8th.

    Some people will argue anything no matter what evidence is provided. I know it conflicts with preferred popular belief. But that is the reality, the .223 RIFLE ROUND has for more energy than the 9mm HANDGUN ROUND.

    The Remington Express 55 gr. 5.56 is 939 foot pounds at 100 yards, The Remington Golden Saber 9mm is 287 foot pounds at 100 yards. A 9mm 115 gr. round will have 266 foot pounds at 100 yards.

    The 9mm will ALWAYS have significantly lower energy levels than the 5.56 in sheet rock, wood, human bodies and ballistic gelatin.

    That is because one is a RIFLE ROUND and the other is a HANDGUN ROUND.

    http://billstclair.com/energy.html
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    Well after passing through 12 "wood barriers" the 5.56 still had enough energy to continue, the 9mm had lost energy after the 8th.

    Some people will argue anything no matter what evidence is provided. I know it conflicts with preferred popular belief. But that is the reality, the .223 RIFLE ROUND has for more energy than the 9mm HANDGUN ROUND.

    The Remington Express 55 gr. 5.56 is 939 foot pounds at 100 yards, The Remington Golden Saber 9mm is 287 foot pounds at 100 yards. A 9mm 115 gr. round will have 266 foot pounds at 100 yards.

    The 9mm will ALWAYS have significantly lower energy levels than the 5.56 in sheet rock, wood, human bodies and ballistic gelatin.

    That is because one is a RIFLE ROUND and the other is a HANDGUN ROUND.
    Your "evidence" doesn't prove anything other than ability to penetrate a specific barrier material. It tells us nothing about how the bullets behave after passing through. You can set up all sorts of impressive demonstrations where a very high velocity rifle bullet penetrates a steel plate that will stop a pistol bullet, yet that "impressive" rifle bullet lacks the sectional density to reliably penetrate and incapacitate in tissue.

    The reason why the "preferred popular belief" is "preferred" and "popular" is because the tests that form the basis for these conclusions actually looked at the wounding ability of the projectile after it passes through the barrier - not just how many barriers it can go through before it stops.

    Most 5.56mm rifle rounds have terrible terminal performance after passing through any kind of barrier, even a thin piece of auto glass. They fragment easily, flatten, lose velocity rapidly, and generally exhibit poor penetration after passing through most barriers. 9mm pistol rounds consistently perform better in these tests (unless specific, barrier-blind 5.56mm bullets are used). How can you claim that the 9mm is safer with respect to bystanders on the other side of a house wall when it retains more wounding ability after passing through those barriers?
    Last edited by dbrowne1; 07-23-09 at 13:25.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbrowne1 View Post
    Your "evidence" doesn't prove anything other than ability to penetrate a specific barrier material. It tells us nothing about how the bullets behave after passing through. You can set up all sorts of impressive demonstrations where a very high velocity rifle bullet penetrates a steel plate that will stop a pistol bullet, yet that "impressive" rifle bullet lacks the sectional density to reliably penetrate and incapacitate in tissue.

    The reason why the "preferred popular belief" is "preferred" and "popular" is because the tests that form the basis for these conclusions actually looked at the wounding ability of the projectile after it passes through the barrier - not just how many barriers it can go through before it stops.

    Most 5.56mm rifle rounds have terrible terminal performance after passing through any kind of barrier, even a thin piece of auto glass. They fragment easily, flatten, lose velocity rapidly, and generally exhibit poor penetration after passing through most barriers. 9mm pistol rounds consistently perform better in these tests (unless specific, barrier-blind 5.56mm bullets are used). How can you claim that the 9mm is safer with respect to bystanders on the other side of a house wall when it retains more wounding ability after passing through those barriers?
    [sigh]

    Energy is energy and it doesn't matter what the projectile is passing through. The reality is when the .223 round leaves the firearm is has approximately THREE TIMES as much energy as a 9mm round. So regardless of the medium there is THREE TIMES as much energy to be dissipated. This is true in wood, sheet rock, ballistic gelatin and people.

    And that is because one is a high energy rifle round and one is a low energy pistol round. This is also what makes the 5.56 terribly effective at 100 yards and the 9mm not so effective at 100 yards. If the 9mm was the high energy super penetrator some folks are trying to make it out to be we'd be using MP5s as our primary military rifle.

    But the desire to use 5.56 in CQB range is so strong it has made some people less intelligent and unable to see things like the basic energy difference between a rifle round and a handgun round.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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  7. #57
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    perhaps wounding potential and penetration dont correlate as much as you think, though- Aug.

    with the 556 we're generally talking 55-77gr, and with a 9emem we're generally talking 115-147gr... we're also talking the difference between a big round slug of soft metal versus a light weight spitzer that's rapidly fragmenting... i think i'd rather get slapped with a destabilized and/or fragmenting 55-77gr than get punched with a mostly-intact 115-147 ball of lead.

    all speculation on my part, though. i know little about terminal ballistics, and even less about terminal ballistics after intermediate barrier penetration. just seems logical, though.

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    Last edited by ZDL; 05-01-10 at 14:23.

  9. #59
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    F=MA; Force=Mass X Acceleration; It does figure into this debate.

  10. #60
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    Steyr,

    We all have some opinions but tone down the pontificating a little. You say "handgun" as if it is a bad thing. Just remember that adding length adds muzzle velocity which means more penetration. As least as much as I am aware.

    DocGKR- Would love to hear some of your wisdom on this matter.



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