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Thread: Are MG prices dropping?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    perhaps wounding potential and penetration dont correlate as much as you think, though- Aug.

    with the 556 we're generally talking 55-77gr, and with a 9emem we're generally talking 115-147gr... we're also talking the difference between a big round slug of soft metal versus a light weight spitzer that's rapidly fragmenting... i think i'd rather get slapped with a destabilized and/or fragmenting 55-77gr than get punched with a mostly-intact 115-147 ball of lead.

    all speculation on my part, though. i know little about terminal ballistics, and even less about terminal ballistics after intermediate barrier penetration. just seems logical, though.

    I'm pretty sure given the fact that the "little round" zips through 12 boards and keeps going while the big 9mm is stopped at the 8th board. Seems like a practical demonstration of penetration to me.

    But we are expected to believe that ballistic gelatin or human tissue dramatically changes the equation. It IS different, but it isn't dramatic enough to reverse things.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Steyr,

    We all have some opinions but tone down the pontificating a little. You say "handgun" as if it is a bad thing. Just remember that adding length adds muzzle velocity which means more penetration. As least as much as I am aware.

    DocGKR- Would love to hear some of your wisdom on this matter.

    Not trying to pontificate, just starting to feel like a TOS debate. And I didn't say handgun as if it was a bad thing, I was pointing out that it is a different thing in terms of energy of the projectile.

    I've been shooting stuff a long time (30+ years) with both 9mm and .223 so I'm of the opinion and belief that I am correct. This is based upon the fact that I have NEVER seen 9mm penetrate anything even close to what a .223 will do.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post

    DocGKR- Would love to hear some of your wisdom on this matter.
    I'd love to hear what he has to say as well given that much of what I've posted is based on things he's already said, for example:

    "In addition, most 5.56 mm bullets are generally less effective when
    intermediate barriers, such as walls, glass, and vehicles shield opponents--this is a significant consideration in urban combat."

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    Not trying to pontificate, just starting to feel like a TOS debate.
    People on TOS are the type that rely on invalid backyard tests shooting plywood to make conclusions about wounding ability of bullets after penetrating barriers.

    DocGKR had this to say about the "Box o Truth" tests in a recent post here:

    "Actually the BOT "test" does not tell us anything about the potential damage a penetrating projectile might cause to a person on the other side of a wall within a house, as the BOT experimental model is incorrect to provide that data. One would have to build an interior wall replica, place tissue simulant material a set distance on the other side of the wall (depending on the expected distance a person might be positioned away from the far side of from the wall--be it 6 inches or 6 feet), then make the shot through the wall and into the tissue simulant. This will give usable data on the potential physiological damage a given projectile might cause after first passing through an intermediate wall barrier."
    Last edited by dbrowne1; 07-23-09 at 20:25.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbrowne1 View Post
    People on TOS are the type that rely on invalid backyard tests shooting plywood to make conclusions about wounding ability of bullets after penetrating barriers.
    Well that was just one of many things I offered. Like I said, been shooting for a lot of years. This includes things like deer with the very same .223 round and small animals with 9mm.

    Wanna know what happened every time? Every single time the .223 penetrated far more than 9mm. I have sometimes seen a .223 round exit a deer, in most cases the 9mm handgun round did not (despite the fact that the target animal was much smaller than a deer.)

    But by all means continue with "people aren't made of wood", the "box of truth" proves nothing about penetration characteristics of a given round and feel free to add "animals aren't the same as ballistic gelatin."

    I don't know everything but I know a few things, and in addition to the difference between .223 and 9mm I know when I'm wasting my time explaining things to somebody who has already decided what is what.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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  6. #66
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    Roger that, which is why I mentioned it. I would tend to believe him more than the "box of truth".

    Quote Originally Posted by dbrowne1 View Post
    I'd love to hear what he has to say as well given that much of what I've posted is based on things he's already said, for example:

    "In addition, most 5.56 mm bullets are generally less effective when
    intermediate barriers, such as walls, glass, and vehicles shield opponents--this is a significant consideration in urban combat."



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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Roger that, which is why I mentioned it. I would tend to believe him more than the "box of truth".
    Not trying to quibble here, but I don't understand why you would accept one "real world" experience but discount another "real world" experience.

    While neither is scientific or conducted under laboratory conditions, it's not like the BOT is rigged to produce a specific outcome. It is nothing more than what happens when a given round is fired into a given medium.

    And like most rounds, they behave differently according to the medium. And you guys are correct about things like windshield glass influencing rounds, but what I am saying is a 9mm with less energy would ALSO be influenced by the same windshield.

    And so we are on the same page, I completely understand that while the 5.56 has greater energy it is also a lighter projectile than the 9mm. Also I fully understand it has a tendency to fragment (the 55 gr. anyway) which of course dramatically changes it's capacity to penetrate a given medium. All I am saying is the round doesn't 'always' fragment and in my experience still is a greater penetrator than 9mm in everything I've seen.

    Now I understand that there is special purpose ammo such as TAP which is designed specifically for low penetration, but they also make 9mm TAP and most 9mm JHP still penetrate far less than .223 in most mediums. The only medium that produces great penetration is wood because it tends to fill the JHP cavity and causes it to not expand. But wood also prevents 55 gr. 5.56 from fragmenting and results in dramatic penetration as well.

    And this is all I'm trying to get across before somebody makes the conscious decision to use 5.56 as a home defense round. I'm not saying it is a bad HD round, I'm just saying you have to keep in mind that it probably won't stop going through things like 2x4s, sheet rock and bad guys as soon as a 9mm JHP round will.

    Now for anything outside, especially when you need to take accurate shots at distances of 50m or more and need to hit with stopping energy the 9mm becomes a far less effective round for that job than the 5.56 round. But for HD or CQB, especially with a house full of friendlies the 9mm (or similar handgun round like .45) is a better tool for the job.

    Now does that mean an AR loaded with TAP is a horrible tool for the job? Of course not, you could even use an AR with regular 55 gr. I'm just pointing out why some firearms might do the job better.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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  8. #68
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    Time for A Necro Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Bell View Post
    I think there has been a drop in the collectible firearms market in general. If you have money, there probably won't be a better time than now to pick up something NFA.
    Actually not looking to buy an NFA item but sell one so I thought it time to revive this dead horse. Current thoughts re. NFA prices anyone, still a buyers market etc?

  9. #69
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    I have seen the MP5's go up around 1k this month. Closer to election the higher the prices go.

  10. #70
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    I still think it's a "buyers" market. I remember reading recently (I think in Small arms review?) that transfers for MG were dramaticly down over the last 12 months but that less expensive NFA items (SBRs, Supressors) were up 2 or 3 fold. The author suggested people were still interested in NFA but since $ is tight people had shifted to less expensive items.
    MG are a luxury item and in this ecomomy there are less available buyers. There are still people out there with money (dealers and individuals) and something priced right will sell.

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